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Thread: MENS LP and the Results

  1. #736
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    Unless Jeremy is confident enough to feel that he owns the podium and he belongs on the podium, like how he felt at the Nationals, this stage-fright in the international competitions will continue. However, it has made him more lovable. So sad for him! He is one of the best in the world but he just couldn't deliver it.

    Thank you, Seniorita! You know I value your opinion greatly.
    Last edited by jennylovskt; 03-26-2010 at 11:51 AM.

  2. #737
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    Thanks a lot for your report, Seniorita. I thoroughly enjoyed that.

  3. #738
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    so true he always has a mixture of terror and depression in his eyes... makes you wonder what it is about skating he enjoys
    He's just intense and quiet, always searching for his focus in the moment of competition. We all have different personalities. Abbott needs to believe in himself and trust his training more when he's competing under pressure. He's so talented and it would be a real shame to see all that potential go unfulfilled in international competition. This is the same guy who defeated the reigning World champ and the would-be Olympic champ at the most stressful event of the season for US skaters, the Olympic trials, by a whopping 25 points, so he has all he needs to fully succeed. He needs to deliver it all consistently though, so he can earn the full respect of the ISU judges.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 03-26-2010 at 12:14 PM.

  4. #739
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    Seniorita, I so enjoyed your report! It made me feel as though I were there in the seats. I can't wait to read what you have to say about the ladies' long program--or anything else you attend.

    I'm so glad to hear that everyone cheered Daisuke. He truly seems like one of those skaters who belongs to the world; he transcends national followings. May he stay healthy and strong for a long time to come!

  5. #740
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    I've rewatched Jeremy's LP on Youtube. It wasn't bad at all. He skated with a lot of energy and attack in the second half of the program. That regretable 2A! His quad's successful rate was still very low. Good for him to put it out there every time! The thing is we are not satisfied with him in the 5th place. We are not satisfied with him off the podium at all because he is that good, he should belong on the podium, nothing less. So frustrated.
    Last edited by jennylovskt; 03-26-2010 at 12:28 PM.

  6. #741
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    What Abbott has to do is what every skater has to do and that is not to worry about winning and to go out there and skate your best Do not do anything 'iffy'. As we say in Bridge, bid your strongest suit. If he is extremely nervous of the crowd, he must check out a sports psychologist. it may work.

  7. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post

    I'm so glad to hear that everyone cheered Daisuke. He truly seems like one of those skaters who belongs to the world; he transcends national followings. May he stay healthy and strong for a long time to come!
    Yeah, I actually can't remember anyone ever saying they hate Takahashi.

  8. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    BUT, Patrick didn't deserve to finish ahead of Kozuka for example at the Olympics. And okay I get that Chan is a world silver medalist and all. But Patrick was getting a lot of really big scores at competitions, before he was a world silver medalist. I mean look at his Skate Canada 2008 win. He did some really not so great technical content but got HUGE PCS. Or his beating Kozuka in the free in Paris in 2008 due to huge PCS. And yes Patrick has more transitions and is a great basic skater. But its not like Kozuka is horrible at these issues. And Kozuka did a LOT more jump wise at that competition. Or Patrick's HUGE scores at Four Continents. Way higher PCS than Evan and TES that were huge as well and Evan did more technical content. I didn't disagree with Patrick's win at Four Continents-but the scores? Meh. Meh. Meh.
    From my perspective, I think you need to be able to justify why you feel Kozuka should have placed ahead of Chan in the Olympic before making a claim re: overscoring. All I can see is your claim but no reasoning or quantifiable justification to support your claim. It is difficult to respond without knowing what's the basis of your complaint. My take is the results in Vancouver was fair and square among the Top 10, I was in Vancouver myself. In fact, at Icenetwork, I outlined my scorecoard for Chan's Free Skate. His TES was justified in my view since I arrived to pretty similar numbers as the panel's average, hence I see no valid claim as to how he could be placed below Kozuka, you are welcome to show me how you get to such conclusion, quantiatively however. Let's start with that before going on and on about 10 other competitions, one thing at a time.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Yes Yu-na Kim gets high scores. But she wasn't winning competitions do to HUGE PCS gaps until she had already established herself as a consistent competitor technically first. And that's what makes people annoyed with Patrick because its just not the case with Chan.
    Now, I don't think that's true at all. At his first Worlds, Patrick Chan finished 9th. At his first GPF, he finished dead last whereas Mao Asada immediately won her first GPF. He paid his dues all right. By the time he won his first world medal, he is actually older than Kim when she won her first medal. Since both Kim and Chan have been skating for the last 10 years or so, it seems to me your claim that Chan is getting a short-cut preference vs. other skaters is just baseless. If your claim is true, then Chan should have won his first World medal at a younger age than Yu-Na Kim or say Mao Asada. But that's not the case. I think you really need to re-examine your bias against this skater, it's obviously coloring your reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    And then there's the whole; he's an all around skater talk when the boy doesn't even have a consistent triple axel. And him saying someday skaters will be more like me! Well I say to myself I hope to God that future skaters will have a consistent triple axel. And I think thats the main thing. The words that come out of Chan's mouth don't endear him to the public.
    He is super popular in Canada and largely considered a candid and well liked role model. His image is everywhere from McDonalds to cereal boxes. He is very endearing in his home country and also in the country of his parents, notably in China. The Chinese media constantly refer to him by his Chinese name and in an endearing manner, it's obvious they are proud of him being Chinese. As for consistency on the Triple Axel, look, he just turned 19. Please name me another male skater aside from Plushenko who accomplished as much as he did when they were his age. Note, Michal Brezina is in fact older than Patrick Chan, so is Adam Rippon. I think your expectation is both unfair and unrealistic. He is pretty consistent on those Triple Axels and overall, a very solid jumper. That's where most of his GOE come from - the quality of his superior jumps. When he lands his jumps, he picks up large amount of GOE in similar way that Yu-Na Kim does because they tend to be of high quality in execution - solid technique, no edge call, excellent flow in/out, soft landing, good height and yes, insanely difficult transitions into most of those jumps. That's why he gather high GOE for his jumps, they weren't free gifts, he earned them by pushing the boundaries of figure skating - sometimes, at his own detriment like yesterday, when he fell on that Triple Loop because the entry was just insane. You make it sound as though those were given to him for free but that is just not the case. Yet, you keep saying you acknowledge he does beautiful and difficult transitions yet simultaneously failed to realize that's why he gets those GOE. To me, your problem is you are unable to quantify what skaters do on ice. I think you really need to take out a piece of paper, mark each element you see from the skaters you watch and act like a judge and actually award GOE, element by element. Then, you'll appreciate where the judges are coming from.

  9. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan O View Post
    What I would like to know is, if Joubert had not fallen on the triple lutz, would the judges still have placed him behind Patrick Chan? If Joubert were to skate a clean program with no mistakes and 2 quads, would he still place behind a flawed Chan program?
    If Joubert landed his Lutz, it would be very close, so more like a toss up. If Joubert were totally mistake free, he would have beaten Chan.

  10. #745
    Custom Title figuristka's Avatar
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    Thanks seniorita for your comments after watching live. I feel they are very good observations, especially about Patrick Chan.

  11. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    If Joubert landed his Lutz, it would be very close, so more like a toss up. If Joubert were totally mistake free, he would have beaten Chan.
    I suspect that the judges would still try to fix the results so that Chan would place ahead even if Joubert skated clean and Chan did not.

    Having said that, Joubert needs to realize that he can't miss the lutz anymore - because the moment he does, the judges will be waiting to use it against him. I think they wanted to place Chan ahead of him, and by doing 2 quads but falling on the lutz it gave the judges what they were looking for.

  12. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan O View Post
    I suspect that the judges would still try to fix the results so that Chan would place ahead even if Joubert skated clean and Chan did not.

    Having said that, Joubert needs to realize that he can't miss the lutz anymore - because the moment he does, the judges will be waiting to use it against him. I think they wanted to place Chan ahead of him, and by doing 2 quads but falling on the lutz it gave the judges what they were looking for.
    List of Joubert's errors in the LP:

    - Hard landing on the second Quad Toe, scratchy landing: 0 or -1 GOE
    - Wobbly landing the Triple Axel: 0 or - 1 GOE
    - Triple Lutz, fall: -3 GOE
    - Triple Flip, major edge call "e" + touch down on landing: -2 or -3 GOE
    - Triple Loop, turn out no foot down: -1 or -2 GOE
    - Change Foot Combination Spin, cut short, downgraded to Level 1 and 0 GOE
    - Straight Line Step Sequence, downgraded to Level 2

    Considering the large number of errors Joubert actually made, some of them, very serious errors, it's amazing that he placed 4th in the Free Skate. In fact, his PCS held him up, he could have been a lot lower based on his TES, which is only the 9th highest of the competition. On the basis of his TES alone, any claim that Joubert is robbed is quite suspect. How do you justify the 9th place TES should end up on the podium is beyond most people's sense of fairness.

  13. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    List of Joubert's errors in the LP:

    - Hard landing on the second Quad Toe, scratchy landing: 0 or -1 GOE
    - Wobbly landing the Triple Axel: 0 or - 1 GOE
    - Triple Lutz, fall: -3 GOE
    - Triple Flip, major edge call "e" + touch down on landing: -2 or -3 GOE
    - Triple Loop, turn out no foot down: -1 or -2 GOE
    - Change Foot Combination Spin, cut short, downgraded to Level 1 and 0 GOE
    - Straight Line Step Sequence, downgraded to Level 2

    Considering the large number of errors Joubert actually made, some of them, very serious errors, it's amazing that he placed 4th in the Free Skate. In fact, his PCS held him up, he could have been a lot lower based on his TES, which is only the 9th highest of the competition. On the basis of his TES alone, any claim that Joubert is robbed is quite suspect. How do you justify the 9th place TES should end up on the podium is beyond most people's sense of fairness.
    Joubert was undermarked in the TES and overmarked in the PCS. Chan was overmarked in both the TES and the PCS. I don't agree with all of those elements above being considered errors by Joubert. The only major error was the fall on the Lutz. There certainly wasn't anything majorly wrong with the landing of the second quad, and of course the main point to remember is that at least he did it (two of them). Chan didn't even bother.

    Chan made several errors too, so those should be listed as well.

  14. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    List of Joubert's errors in the LP:

    - Hard landing on the second Quad Toe, scratchy landing: 0 or -1 GOE
    - Wobbly landing the Triple Axel: 0 or - 1 GOE
    - Triple Lutz, fall: -3 GOE
    - Triple Flip, major edge call "e" + touch down on landing: -2 or -3 GOE
    - Triple Loop, turn out no foot down: -1 or -2 GOE
    - Change Foot Combination Spin, cut short, downgraded to Level 1 and 0 GOE
    - Straight Line Step Sequence, downgraded to Level 2

    Considering the large number of errors Joubert actually made, some of them, very serious errors, it's amazing that he placed 4th in the Free Skate. In fact, his PCS held him up, he could have been a lot lower based on his TES, which is only the 9th highest of the competition. On the basis of his TES alone, any claim that Joubert is robbed is quite suspect. How do you justify the 9th place TES should end up on the podium is beyond most people's sense of fairness.
    Thanks for your post and analysis Wally.
    Joubert has very loyal fans - but they don't want to consider his mistakes.
    Without such high pcs Joubert would have not made the podium.

  15. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan O View Post
    Joubert was undermarked in the TES and overmarked in the PCS. Chan was overmarked in both the TES and the PCS. I don't agree with all of those elements above being considered errors by Joubert. The only major error was the fall on the Lutz. There certainly wasn't anything majorly wrong with the landing of the second quad, and of course the main point to remember is that at least he did it (two of them). Chan didn't even bother.

    Chan made several errors too, so those should be listed as well.
    It really doesn't matter whether you agree or not. It is what it is. Look up the protocol sheet. Getting downgraded to Level 1 on the Spin is most definitely a major error. Same thing happened to Yu-Na Kim's Spiral today or how you think she found herself in 7th now? For you to claim this is not a major error is frankly, ignorant to say the least. Loss positive GOE opportunity can be just as costly, even if the element is not bad enough to be negative because your competitior could be earning positive GOE for using the same jumping pass slot, that would be a + for them against you. Like I said before, if you want to complain about something, you need to do more than just making a claim but also explain the WHY. Otherwise, it just comes across as whining.

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