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Thread: The new emperor had a quad in his program.

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I like Dai enough not to be sarcastic, but no, he did not really seem to have a quad yet. He had it in the program. This normally means that he would have decent success rates in practices and that's why I guess people are giving a credit for it. But his practice reports never sounded like that for months, even without music.
    Today I heard him talk about his former Self before the injury who used to land two quads in the program. To me, he seems to be having difficulty accepting where he is now.
    He says that all the quad attemps in the program have been practices for the future events. I think that this strategy works when you have decent success rates but have nerve problems. But attempting what you don't often succeed in practices does not seem a very helpful measure to take. In that stage, I personally prefer Evan's strategy: accept, let it go, and do one's best within one's given capacity.
    I hope that he can remain patient a little longer and the day comes when he actaully has it back.
    Very interesting. I love Takahashi as well, but I want to ask how realistic it is to try to get back the quad. Physically, is it possible? Takahashi's not exactly in the prime of his figure skating years, and when it comes to Takahashi, I don't mind having a quadless world champion, as he brings so much more to sport. Is it a smart strategy to attempt it every time or should he just "let it go" like you suggest? (Esp. as many people project that he will retire following 2011 Tokyo Worlds).

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    It must have been close to being rotated, at least. I thought that he had fully rotated it when I first saw it.
    it's only 3 1/2 turn rotated, maybe alittle more. But who knows, with more practise and better stigma he can land it cleanly next season!!

  3. #18
    Eville Eastern Bloc Poster
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    Dai is one of that kind of a skater nobody really cares if he ... "... has a quad or not ..." ... unlike these certain, v-e-r-y certain!!! US/Canadian-completely-forgetables :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo:, he has sooooo much else to offer!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Germanice View Post
    Dai is one of that kind of a skater nobody really cares if he ... "... has a quad or not ..." ... unlike these certain, v-e-r-y certain!!! US/Canadian-completely-forgetables :boohoo: :boohoo: he has sooooo much else to offer!!!!!!!
    I agree Dai is a great skater.
    And for the third straight year it is a fact that we have a Men's champion who did not land a quad.

    My gosh - will the world come to an end

  5. #20
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
    Very interesting. I love Takahashi as well, but I want to ask how realistic it is to try to get back the quad. Physically, is it possible? Takahashi's not exactly in the prime of his figure skating years, and when it comes to Takahashi, I don't mind having a quadless world champion, as he brings so much more to sport. Is it a smart strategy to attempt it every time or should he just "let it go" like you suggest? (Esp. as many people project that he will retire following 2011 Tokyo Worlds).
    I guess and hope that he will have it back again near future. Only after he recovers a more decent success rate in practices, I believe it would become more meaningful to attempt it in the program again. As far as I hear his practice reports and have seen all the failed attempts throughout this season, I doubt if he was any less quadless than Jeff or perhaps Evan was (I do not follow Evan closely and I hear that he stopped practicing it after an injury because quads can be very dangerous for his body). Then I would actually give more credit to Jeff and Evan for accepting the reality and maximizing the opportunity by doing what they can actually do in the program instead.

  6. #21
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    Well I don't see why the quad is so dangerous for Lysacek. If it was so bad for him he wouldn't have tried it at nationals at all. He just can't land them anymore and has used his foot issue to not even try them because he just can't do them anymore. Rather make himself look good. At least takahashi tried a quad flip. You think his knee surgery that required a year off makes it smart for him to do it? He tried because he believed rather lose with an atempt and fail than win without even trying. Maybe that is just diplomacy on his part trying to stay in the middle of pro quad and anti quad people but whatever he is more champion than Lysacek or Buttle will ever be.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    ... I like Dai enough not to be sarcastic, but no, he did not really seem to have a quad yet.
    ... Today I heard him talk about his former Self before the injury who used to land two quads in the program. To me, he seems to be having difficulty accepting where he is now.
    ... In that stage, I personally prefer Evan's strategy: accept, let it go, and do one's best within one's given capacity.
    1. Change that "yet" to "again" and I'll be happy.

    2. I certainly think he has difficulty accepting where he is now. Here is a man who holds the LP and Combined Total Record Scores (achieved at 2008 4CC) and received those because he had landed two clean quads in an awesome program. Two years and and injury later, he can barely land one, so it's understandably frustrating for him to be where he is now.

    3. I don't really agree that Evan's strategy is better for Dai because Evan couldn't land quads as successfully as Dai did. For Dai, I think, it's more about personal satisfaction with oneself more than it is about trying to win at a limited capacity. I mean, c'mon now, Dai's definitely a more complete package next to Evan and probably didn't need a quad in Vancouver to defeat him, but would he have felt right personally about winning?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I like Dai enough not to be sarcastic, but no, he did not really seem to have a quad yet. But his practice reports never sounded like that for months, even without music.
    Today I heard him talk about his former Self before the injury who used to land two quads in the program. To me, he seems to be having difficulty accepting where he is now.
    He says that all the quad attemps in the program have been practices for the future events. I think that this strategy works when you have decent success rates but have nerve problems. But attempting what you don't often succeed in practices does not seem a very helpful measure to take.
    But hey Dai has landed a "few", very "few" in this years' practices.... like in Vancouver,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSVIvLkmmio#t=1m55s

    hehe, and ya he's never landed the flip, not even in JPN (the same two foots / UR). Also he says in the flow of the competition he is able to perform the jumps better than in practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Only after he recovers a more decent success rate in practices, I believe it would become more meaningful to attempt it in the program again. As far as I hear his practice reports and have seen all the failed attempts throughout this season, I doubt if he was any less quadless than Jeff or perhaps Evan was. Then I would actually give more credit to Jeff and Evan for accepting the reality and maximizing the opportunity by doing what they can actually do in the program instead.
    Well said, sometimes it takes more courage to accept your own fate than to challenge a seemingly impossible feat. Regarding his injury, going after the quad is a testament in his adversity to OVERCOME and recover 100% from his injury.

    If skating SMART under such scenarios then it would be logical to take out the quad for the best chance at a clean program. However Daisuke's purpose was more than just "skating to win", perhaps the quad attempts in the beginnings of his programs got him pumped up to deliver the spectacular performances. Initially Dai had turned down the JPN skating federation in coming to these worlds citing burnout from Olympics, so again the 4F was a little self motivation / challenge. As Dai has said practicing the quad is a target for next season, it is very important to start doing the quad in competition and "get it out there" (yes he has not landed the jump before / has an extremely low success rate in recent practices). So why not try it here on a grand stage when he has seemingly no pressure, because a win next year in Japan would be even more satisfying and successful for him.

    On the other hand we do have conservative skaters who are gun-shy about pulling the trigger on the quad in competition. Some people have questioned when Oda (who does beautiful 4-3-3 in practices), Weir, Březina were in 4-5-6 places at Olympics/Worlds, they could have attempted a quad to give themselves at least a CHANCE to make a splash on the podium. Well they seemed content by staying in their own comfort zones. Maybe had Oda tried the quad in earlier competitions, he would have been able to put it in when he needed it most at the Olympics. (god bless him)

    Then again you have skaters like Joubert, Jeremy, Kozuka whom usually do quads in competition, all having their own levels of success and handful of misery. Each skater have their own rationale for attempting quads, I just try to respect their decisions. Anyway yea Evan probably has a better strategy for winning, I am just happy for Dai with staying true to his character and skating on his own terms.

    Looking back I am sorta glad that we now have a system to reward different skaters. Sebastien Britten (CAN) back in the day was forced to attempt a 3A at the nationals (a jump to that point he has never landed before) in order to make the world team, and Todd Eldredge late in his career forced to attempt quad in SP just to put himself in contention.


    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Well I don't see why the quad is so dangerous for Lysacek. If it was so bad for him he wouldn't have tried it at nationals at all. He just can't land them anymore and has used his foot issue to not even try them because he just can't do them anymore. Rather make himself look good.
    Lysacek suffered a stress fracture from practicing the quad previously, and in the weeks leading up to the Olympics he started feeling pain again. So decided to take it out of his routine rather than risk further injury. Nationals has always been a platform to experiment with some new things in front of a comfortable home crowd. Though the "make himself look good" I guess have some merit to it, seeing how reportedly Evan refused to let Johnny show Evan's LP in one of Johnny's videos?
    Last edited by bibi24; 03-27-2010 at 04:54 AM.

  9. #24
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Thanks guys for interesting discussion! I really appreciate it!

    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    1. Change that "yet" to "again" and I'll be happy.
    Okay, okay, how about "he did not really seem to have a quad back yet."

    Quote Originally Posted by bibi24 View Post
    On the other hand we do have conservative skaters who seem gun-shy about pulling the trigger on the quad in competition. Some people have questioned when Oda (who does beautiful 4-3-3 in practices), Weir, Březina were in 4-5-6 places at Olympics/Worlds, they could have attempted a quad to give themselves at least a CHANCE to make a splash on the podium. Well they seemed content by staying in their own comfort zones.
    Weir, he used to try it but was never successful at comp. I think it better for him that he went clean at both programs at this time. It's just that judges were biased and did not give him decent PCS that he would have deserved for his beautiful skating. For Oda, his nerve problem is still too big for him to try a quad at a big comp? He might have gone for it at this time though had he qualified.
    Then again you have skaters like Joubert, Jeremy, Kozuka whom usually do quads in competition, all having their own levels of success and misery. Each skater have their own rationale on whether to attempt any quads, and I just try to respect their decisions.
    Yeah, and they do have good success rates, esp. Joubert. Sato family would not let you try otherwise, either.
    Looking back now I am sorta glad that we have a system now which rewards different skaters. Sebastien Britten (CAN) back in the day was forced to attempt a 3A at the nationals (a jump to that point he has never landed before) in order to make the world team, and Todd Eldredge late in his career forced to attempt quad in SP just to put himself in contention.
    I do not know enough back ground about this. Why did Sebastien Britten back in the day was forced to attempa 3A at Nationals to make the world team even though he never landed it before and Todd Eldredge late in his career forced to attempt quad in SP to put himself in contention? Would you be so kind as to explain a bit?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Sato family would not let you try otherwise, either.
    Definitely, seem like very disciplined coaches, which has helped Jeremy's confidence in recent seasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I do not know enough back ground about this. Why did Sebastien Britten back in the day was forced to attempa 3A at Nationals to make the world team even though he never landed it before and Todd Eldredge late in his career forced to attempt quad in SP to put himself in contention? Would you be so kind as to explain a bit?
    Oh it was just under the old 6.0 scoring system, and the matter of ordinals.

    Barbara Underhill and Rod Black talked about Britten in the beginning and his second jumping pass,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDMcLQwrwjU#t=0m25s

    For a skater to be in contention for Gold, they must place in the top three after the SP (unless the top ranked SP skater falls below 3rd in LP). Now under CoP, you can have more than just the top 3 in contention with points. Also it was a case of an older generation of skaters getting pushed aside by the new wave of top skaters. For Todd he had to learn a new move (quad) at age 30 and that really wasn't going to happen, Scott Hamilton commented on it at SLC 2002.

    Anyway most traditional coaches wouldn't allow (recommend) their pupils to attempt jumps they haven't landed in practice, very low success rate, or not worth the risk/return. But there are exceptions (perhaps the coaches know something about their skaters that we don't), also some skaters could go against their coaches' wishes (whether there will be consequences to pay or not that's another story lol).
    Last edited by bibi24; 03-27-2010 at 07:48 AM.

  11. #26
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Thanks bibi. But I don't quite get what the point is in putting a jump that you've never/rarely landed under the 6.0 system. If you don't land it, it just does not count anyway. I hear that a clean skate mattered more in the old system.

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