Ladies - LP

[rtureck]

There are things that are in favor of Yuna and others that are in favor of Michelle. Again, this is stupid and I don't pretend to compare. Just let's stop it.

Daniel, you were the one who started this "stupid " comparing, and put in 4CC which is not an entirely world wide comp into the equation. Anyway, I don't think fans (unless they love to brag) choose a favorite skater on the basis of how many comp they win.

Can't believe it has been 10years since Mk won worlds with the red violin

[carriecmu0503]

Yuna was not overscored on GOE's. She didn't even receive the highest GOE's on her jumps even though they were of the highest quality compared to any of the other ladies. Her 3-3 in FS alone deserved an automatic 2-3 points, but she only received 1 point for it. Ridiculous!

Also, I thought she should have received credit for spin sequence in the SP. I thought tech caller was ridicuously strict. Why would anyone consider a botched single turn to be the start of the spin sequence? No common sense whatsoever in how the rules were applied.

Honest question here, but have you ever skated? That "bothched single turn" at the start of her spin was the entrance to her spin. Missing it is like missing the take off to a jump- like when she did that waltz jump later in her FS. Once you miss an entrance to a jump, and start to take off, like doing a waltz jump, that element is gone. It is the same with a windup and entrance into a spin. She did more than just one turn- she actually started the mechanism to spin but missed it. You miss it, no credit for the spin. Hope that helps.

[miki88]

You didn't hear that Mao was so good in 2006 that a lot of people stated that Mao would have won at the 2006 OGM if she was allowed to compete with even Sasha and Slutskaya?

Below is direct excerpt from Wikipedia:



Basically, she beat every single top players on the planet earth in 2006 even though she was too young to compete at the 2006 Olympics. I think the current system gives less known players more opportunities to beat top skaters than 6.0 system. Another example, lesser known Mirai beat top players in SP at the world.

Are you stating that the judges ganged up against Akiko and applied double standard between Akiko and the rest? Then it is a bold accusation and you should have very compelling evidence other than just saying "she was good and deserved higher score". I don't see any reason why they would do that. Do you? I wonder what kind motivation the judges had and what kind of benefits they gained by doing so.

I stated that "past performance (I don't think I used the word "reputation") plays a role" based on my observation on how staters have been scored and I didn't say it was really what was going on or even it was good or bad. When I compared Mao's performance against Mirai's performance at the Olympics and the difference in PCS scores they received for their LP program, it made me think that past performances might have something to do with the difference in score. There were some people who claimed it was ridiculous that Yuna got higher PCS than Mao at the worlds and I wanted to point out that clean program does not guarantee a higher PCS as evidenced by Mao getting higher PCS than Mirai at the Olympics.

I totally agree with your statement "The point is not to evaluate the skaters based on how generally good they are but how good they are on that particular night" But the issue is that it is much harder to evaluate PCS while it is much easier to evaluate TES because TES is tangible but PCS is intangible and TES more objective, PCS more subjective. Because of these obsticles and limitations, I think PCS doesn't fluctuate as much as some people think it should.

If you are so much concerned about certain skaters not being evaluated fairly too much, I don't think you can really enjoy watching FS. The judges may not be perfect but I tend to believe they are much more objective and fair than of us on the forum. IMHO.


Really? Have you ever heard of "Life is unfair?" You don't get rewarded for what you do in real life often, but in skating world, you get rewarded fairly for what/how you do. IMHO.

IMAO. Of course I know what happened in 2005 GPF. (I'm her fan after all). Yes, sometimes upsets do happen but it's not that common. All I am saying is that I think the current system is not fairer than the older system. You do remember upsets also happened under the older system. I mean Sarah Hughes? Also Oksana Baiul rise from a lesser-known to a teen phenom was pretty quick, so it also happened before. Well, I disagree. Just because they are judges and just because those are the rules doesn't mean they are fair. For every system, there will be supporters and opponents. And I just happen to be on the other side from you.

[rtureck]

what's up with that Norpido? He/she's been trolling about yuna during the entire thread and also on the other threads while praising Mao lol Anyways, For Mao, I think she's more on the cute side. People has been saying her programs don't fit her and I think that is because she still has that young, teen quality. Maybe at the next olympics when she's more mature, she can pull off heavy Russian programs better, in Russia lol. She's so skinny too (I could see her bones on her back!). I heard she lost a lot of weight to increase consistency on her jumps. I hope she's enjoying that pizza she wanted now lol

I think Mao is plenty mature, she reminds me of Kristi at her exact age. I think she pulled off prelude in c sharp minor just fine by olympics and worlds. Yeah she is thin, kind of reminds me of Kristi too. Kristi was skinny when she was 30 y/o. So call "Mature" or "teen age like " is very subjective, and Mao is a teenager. She does not come across as losing a lot of wt. Anyway, Mao's posture, body line, extension etc is always pretty regardless of losing wt or not. I hope she enjyoys the ice cream she loves so much

[rtureck]

Honest question here, but have you ever skated? That "bothched single turn" at the start of her spin was the entrance to her spin. Missing it is like missing the take off to a jump- like when she did that waltz jump later in her FS. Once you miss an entrance to a jump, and start to take off, like doing a waltz jump, that element is gone. It is the same with a windup and entrance into a spin. She did more than just one turn- she actually started the mechanism to spin but missed it. You miss it, no credit for the spin. Hope that helps.

Botched single turn was counted as one mandatory element her layback spin, and since she started the spin, and it is a sp, she cannot make it up by doing another layback spin. Even though she popped the jump and turned it into a waltz, since she didn't fall, there was no minus 1. For some reasons many skaters e.g. hate to pop a jump, Kristi prefers to try and fall on a jump

[brianjyw]

I am wondering that because Mao's PCS dropped like 5 points from the Olympics, and several people including me thinks she performed it better at Worlds.

Frirst, sorry about responding again to the same message. I missed this part previousely.

I believe that is a valid question. But as you know PCS scores were inflated all across the board at the Olympics. So I think most of the drop (4.56 points) in Mao's PCS score is just a deflation. Now, Yuna's PCS score was also dropped by 6.72 points from 71.76 to 65.07.

So I don't think it is such a big problem when everyone is deflated at the worlds.

[brianjyw]

IMAO. Of course I know what happened in 2005 GPF. (I'm her fan after all). Yes, sometimes upsets do happen but it's not that common. All I am saying is that I think the current system is not fairer than the older system. You do remember upsets also happened under the older system. I mean Sarah Hughes? Also Oksana Baiul rise from a lesser-known to a teen phenom was pretty quick, so it also happened before. Well, I disagree. Just because they are judges and just because those are the rules doesn't mean they are fair. For every system, there will be supporters and opponents. And I just happen to be on the other side from you.

Fair enough!

I just can't stand when people say something is unfair while they apply their logic ambiguously with double standard.

[Mathman]

Brianjyw, here is a good example of how how being just a little off-kilter technically can prevent the choregraphy and interpretation from taking off.

This is Michelle Kwan's "Song of the Black Swan," as mentioned by RTureck above. First, her performance at Skate Canada earlier in the year. Nothing is really wrong with the performance, but it just doesn't sing. She slighly double-footed the loop, did only a triple-double instead of a triple-triple, not a clear outside edge on the Lutz como, she teetered and tottered a little in a transitional move, etc. Then, as Peggy Fleming remarks referring to a similar performance at Skate America, she had to abondon her choreography to throw in an extra triple at the end to make up for the lost content.

All of this made the music seem dreary and the performance kind of blah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9B59_IWoA

She did, however, get 5.7s to 5.9s for the second mark -- no doubt in part because, well, she IS Michelle Kwan, after all. Plus, look how pretty she looks.

Now here is her performance of the same program in the Worlds qualifying round (sorry, the quality of the video is not as good.) At the very beginning of the tape you can hear the commentators refer to the fact that one of Michelle's skates is higher than the other. One of her blades broke off in warm-ups, and her Dad had to repair it as best he could with a huge 8 inch nail.

In this performance the security of her jump technique (she hit her triple-triple for one thing) carried over into all the transitions and moves in the field -- her Charlotte, spiral sequence, spins in both directions, and everytihing else. This allowed her to convey the feeling of serenty-overlying-tension that the music inspired. Michelle's on the ice, God's in his heaven, and all's right with the world! 6.0.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjRn9pjbOCc

[Daniel5555]

rtureck

Daniel, you were the one who started this "stupid " comparing, and put in 4CC which is not an entirely world wide comp into the equation.

Por favor, that was addressed to janetfan and his ridiculous statement that in terms of achievements both Mao and Yuna combined don't come close to Michelle. He started it, not me.

Mathman

In this performance the security of her jump technique (she hit her triple-triple for one thing) carried over into all the transitions and moves in the field -- her Charlotte, spiral sequence, spins in both directions, and everytihing else. This allowed her to convey the feeling of serenty-overlying-tension that the music inspired. Michelle's on the ice, God's in his heaven, and all's right with the world! 6.0.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjRn9pjbOCc

What makes me sad is that we have to watch performances like this in such horrible quality. They should put this on Blu Ray discs, because it's awesome.

[PROKOFIEV]

Brianjyw, here is a good example of how how being just a little off-kilter technically can prevent the choregraphy and interpretation from taking off.

This is Michelle Kwan's "Song of the Black Swan," as mentioned by RTureck above. First, her performance at Skate Canada earlier in the year. Nothing is really wrong with the performance, but it just doesn't sing. She slighly double-footed the loop, did only a triple-double instead of a triple-triple, not a clear outside edge on the Lutz como, she teetered and tottered a little in a transitional move, etc. Then, as Peggy Fleming remarks referring to a similar performance at Skate America, she had to abondon her choreography to throw in an extra triple at the end to make up for the lost content.

All of this made the music seem dreary and the performance kind of blah.









\

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9B59_IWoA

She did, however, get 5.7s to 5.9s for the second mark -- no doubt in part because, well, she IS Michelle Kwan, after all. Plus, look how pretty she looks.

Now here is her performance of the same program in the Worlds qualifying round (sorry, the quality of the video is not as good.) At the very beginning of the tape you can hear the commentators refer to the fact that one of Michelle's skates is higher than the other. One of her blades broke off in warm-ups, and her Dad had to repair it as best he could with a huge 8 inch nail.

In this performance the security of her jump technique (she hit her triple-triple for one thing) carried over into all the transitions and moves in the field -- her Charlotte, spiral sequence, spins in both directions, and everytihing else. This allowed her to convey the feeling of serenty-overlying-tension that the music inspired. Michelle's on the ice, God's in his heaven, and all's right with the world! 6.0.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjRn9pjbOCc

Mathman, thank you so much for this wonderful comparison. I always enjoy your posts because you are always logical, of course because youare MATH man. What a differences in those two programs. It is a great example. Even Michelle's very rare "blah" program is totally different from Yuna's "blah" program at the Worlds. No matter how much she make mistakes, She never gives up until she finishes. I am sure she was always trained to compete even though her motivation was very low. I can not imagine she whould say "i did not want to comete at this competition and I did not practice for a while and so on." It shows her respect to skating, her fans and her competitiors. I really get offended when someone trys to compare Yuna with Michelle. Michelle is in a totally different fields in terms of her achievement, her respect to the sports , fans and fellow skaters. I do not think she ever made any excuses for her mistakes. She certainly never blamed someone obstructing her practice during her loooong skating carrier. When I look at these programs, I miss her more than ever. I used to look forward to Michelle's new programs, music costumes every season and Sasha's. Nowadays, there is not any skaters that exctite me to look forward to. (Well, Daisuke and Mirai is getting on my list noawadys) Sorry, I went off the topic.

[Olympia]

Asada sisters always remind me of Hina dolls, classy Japanese beauty.
http://userdisk.webry.biglobe.ne.jp/...4016413312.jpg

I love this picture, and I see what you mean. Mao does have that timeless look to her features. I'm not so familiar with Mai's face, but I'll take your word for it.

One of the nice things I noticed in the montage of photos someone else supplied was that Mao had a different expression in every picture. That's very uncommon: most people look pretty much the same in every photo. Mao so effectively conveys everything she thinks and feels.

And then Mathman went and mentioned one of my favorite programs ever, Michelle's Song of the Black Swan, especially in the Worlds Qualifying. The combination of her assured technique and musicality, the intricate yet silken choreography, and the gorgeous music makes me return to that video again and again. I just recently discovered the origin of the first section of music in that program: it turns out to be by Villa-Lobos, and it's actually called "The Song of the Black Swan." Most of the rest of the music comes from a Dvorak trio known as the Dumky Trio, so I had assumed that the beginning was by Dvorak also. Gee, it only took me nine years to figure things out....but that is one glorious skating program, and there aren't many that can equal it in my estimation.

[janetfan]

rtureck

Por favor, that was addressed to janetfan and his ridiculous statement that in terms of achievements both Mao and Yuna combined don't come close to Michelle. He started it, not me.

.

Yes, but I let it go two days ago. Why can't you?

And we are all entitled to our opinions. I think major titles do have an impact on a skater's legacy. So does their body of work.

Michelle left a legacy few skaters will match. You are free to disagree.

[brianjyw]

Brianjyw, here is a good example of how how being just a little off-kilter technically can prevent the choregraphy and interpretation from taking off.

This is Michelle Kwan's "Song of the Black Swan," as mentioned by RTureck above. First, her performance at Skate Canada earlier in the year. Nothing is really wrong with the performance, but it just doesn't sing. She slighly double-footed the loop, did only a triple-double instead of a triple-triple, not a clear outside edge on the Lutz como, she teetered and tottered a little in a transitional move, etc. Then, as Peggy Fleming remarks referring to a similar performance at Skate America, she had to abondon her choreography to throw in an extra triple at the end to make up for the lost content.

All of this made the music seem dreary and the performance kind of blah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9B59_IWoA

She did, however, get 5.7s to 5.9s for the second mark -- no doubt in part because, well, she IS Michelle Kwan, after all. Plus, look how pretty she looks.

Now here is her performance of the same program in the Worlds qualifying round (sorry, the quality of the video is not as good.) At the very beginning of the tape you can hear the commentators refer to the fact that one of Michelle's skates is higher than the other. One of her blades broke off in warm-ups, and her Dad had to repair it as best he could with a huge 8 inch nail.

In this performance the security of her jump technique (she hit her triple-triple for one thing) carried over into all the transitions and moves in the field -- her Charlotte, spiral sequence, spins in both directions, and everytihing else. This allowed her to convey the feeling of serenty-overlying-tension that the music inspired. Michelle's on the ice, God's in his heaven, and all's right with the world! 6.0.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjRn9pjbOCc

Thank you for the post. I could see the difference. I noticed she improved upon a lot of things and added fine details to her program since the first competition for the program. I believe the first clip is done at the first competion of the season and the second one almost at the end of the season. No wonder she is a legend. A legend never fails to improve upon oneself.

I see Mao's program in the first clip and Yuna's in the second clip.

[miki88]

Thank you for the post. I could see the difference. I noticed she improved upon a lot of things and added fine details to her program since the first competition for the program. I believe the first clip is done at the first competion of the season and the second one almost at the end of the season. No wonder she is a legend. A legend never fails to improve upon oneself.

I see Mao's program in the first clip and Yuna's in the second clip.

Now I understand why you disagree with me so much~~~

[janetfan]

It is easy to see an example of this watching Mirai this season. Her GP LP's were not skated that well - but by the time the Olympics rolled around she had a much stronger presentation.
Her pcs at the Olympics were much better than earlier in the season because she was skating her LP so much better.