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Thread: Ladies - LP

  1. #1456
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I had thought that, too, but I went back to watch the program, and it has some lovely features. There are arm movements and irregular turns that give this program such texture and originality. I think I've avoided watching this because it was a "bad" year for Michelle--she lost her world championship to Tara and had a few falls and bobbles. But in this competition she did her falling in the short program (ending up in fourth place there) and pulled herself up with this long program. It's a flowing program with great subtlety, and you can see Michelle's increased maturity. She moves with the command and completeness of a great dancer, and as if her motions were creating the music. For anyone who likes to see what skating is capable of, it's definitely worth another look.
    She definitely moves very well but ultimately I don't think the arm movements and such really add up to much in that program. The choreography doesn't create any kind of specific feeling. It's nice by itself but ultimately doesn't interpret the music brilliantly. The music needed choreography that was more hard-edged, IMO.

  2. #1457
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    I think choreography, interpretation, and transitions are redundant to an extent. Hard to evaluate one without the other.

  3. #1458
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    Mao outskated Yuna in FS ??? If you can see both programs again, especially on Tv, you can see How easily Yuna flowed with soft body movements, and how struggling Mao was. I thought "Mao was tired too.."
    if yuna did not make mistakes in jumps, she would got more scores in P/E.

    Yuna was just subpar of her own standard. and Because of The Performance "Level" gap between Yuna and others, It's like Goes at TES,Yuna is hardly to be beaten to others in P/E.
    Just Substitute the player of that fs program Yuna to others, and if they got same pcs, you may think they are underscored. Double standards is inevitable ^^;;

    IMO, Choreography/Transitions always affects P/E too, because little changes and moves in between each Component can't have more points than many.

  4. #1459
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicivici View Post
    Mao outskated Yuna in FS ??? If you can see both programs again, especially on Tv, you can see How easily Yuna flowed with soft body movements, and how struggling Mao was. I thought "Mao was tired too.."
    if yuna did not make mistakes in jumps, she would got more scores in P/E.

    Yuna was just subpar of her own standard. and Because of The Performance "Level" gap between Yuna and others, It's like Goes at TES,Yuna is hardly to be beaten to others in P/E.
    Just Substitute the player of that fs program Yuna to others, and if they got same pcs, you may think they are underscored. Double standards is inevitable ^^;;

    IMO, Choreography/Transitions always affects P/E too, because little changes and moves in between each Component can't have more points than many.
    Hmm.. I have seen both programs several of times, but I still did not see how she skated better than Mao in the LP. According to your logic, then I guess Michelle should never have been beaten throughout her career no matter if she makes mistakes or not, since her level was so above the others (maybe she should have competed under this system).
    Last edited by miki88; 03-31-2010 at 11:51 PM.

  5. #1460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Then he tried to be little Kurt Browning for a while, until Kurt gave up on him.
    actually Kurt became too busy and couldn't give the attention Browning felt Joubert deserved, so he said he would do one of his programs, but not both. Joubert didn't even have the courtesy to call and cancel when he decided to go to someone else for BOTH programs. Browning bent over backwards to make sure he had time to choreograph a short program for Brian and found out through the grapevine that Brian went in a different direction.

  6. #1461
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by vicivici
    Mao outskated Yuna in FS ??? If you can see both programs again, especially on Tv, you can see How easily Yuna flowed with soft body movements, and how struggling Mao was. I thought "Mao was tired too.."
    if yuna did not make mistakes in jumps, she would got more scores in P/E.

    Yuna was just subpar of her own standard. and Because of The Performance "Level" gap between Yuna and others, It's like Goes at TES,Yuna is hardly to be beaten to others in P/E.
    Just Substitute the player of that fs program Yuna to others, and if they got same pcs, you may think they are underscored. Double standards is inevitable ^^;;

    IMO, Choreography/Transitions always affects P/E too, because little changes and moves in between each Component can't have more points than many.
    But how many times does Choregraphy/Transitions need to be rewarded. It gets rewarded in GOE. And it gets rewarded in Choregraphy, and it gets rewarded in Transitions. It also gets rewarded in skating skills? Why does it need to be rewarded a fourth time? I mean quads only get rewarded once. I'm not saying that the judges shouldn't take into account choregraphy/transitions at all in P/E. But I'm saying it wouldn't hurt for things like how well the performance was actaully executed, to be the primary focus for that mark.

    Besides if someone is very messy, that means that they couldn't execute the program well. It means that perhaps the person was doing to much. Its not ridiculous to suggest that SOME of the PCS actually reflect whats done on the ice.

  7. #1462
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicivici View Post
    Mao outskated Yuna in FS ??? If you can see both programs again, especially on Tv, you can see How easily Yuna flowed with soft body movements, and how struggling Mao was. I thought "Mao was tired too.."
    if yuna did not make mistakes in jumps, she would got more scores in P/E.

    Yuna was just subpar of her own standard. and Because of The Performance "Level" gap between Yuna and others, It's like Goes at TES,Yuna is hardly to be beaten to others in P/E.
    Just Substitute the player of that fs program Yuna to others, and if they got same pcs, you may think they are underscored. Double standards is inevitable ^^;;

    IMO, Choreography/Transitions always affects P/E too, because little changes and moves in between each Component can't have more points than many.
    Uh, struggling? Are you for real?

  8. #1463
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    But how many times does Choregraphy/Transitions need to be rewarded. It gets rewarded in GOE. And it gets rewarded in Choregraphy, and it gets rewarded in Transitions. It also gets rewarded in skating skills? Why does it need to be rewarded a fourth time? I mean quads only get rewarded once.
    So you don't believe the quad bonus in PCS? How else do you explain Reynolds' high scores?

  9. #1464
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    So you don't believe the quad bonus in PCS? How else do you explain Reynolds' high scores?


    Or Joubert and Plushy? They get outrageous marks for TR, CH and IN because of the quad.
    Let's not forget Plushy himself said he and Joubert have no transitions.

    I hate to break it to Plushy/Joubert but their CH and IN is also on the mediocre side - yet they get big scores.

    Jeremy said he knows his pcs go up when he lands a quad regardless of how he performs the other elements.

    Now imagine this - next season Patrick lands a quad.

    Lord have mercy, if that happens his pcs will go through the roof

  10. #1465
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    But once again that's ridiculous. Somewhere in there, the actual quality of the performance needs to be taken into account. Otherwise skaters will be judged by reputation only and it will be difficult to bet a well repped skater. I remember looking at the marks and Yu-na did get slightly higher P/E marks. And that's just ridiculous. Seniorita was there, and I'm sure she will tell you. Mao out skated Yu-na, Mao out skated Yu-na by a lot...
    And Yu-Na outskated Mao AND Carolina at 2008 Worlds in the free, as seen in her TES, and yet her lovely program were not rewarded with the highest PCS scores. Those went to Mao (who fell) and she got virtually the same as Carolina (who had multiple jump errors). Mao and Carolina received high PCS marks despite their errors because PCS, as it is defined, does not have a direct relationship to jumping errors. Looking at their programs and skating ability back then, I wouldn't object to Mao receiving such high PCS if Yu-Na had received _equal_ PCS, but the margins between them were so slight that the difference in PCS meant Yu-Na had to receive bronze. So I think there that it wasn't the case that Mao was held up through PCS but rather that Yu-Na was held down.

    Judging bias can certainly come into play, but PCS is not ordinals--judges are not supposed to score skaters in relation to other skaters. Mao and Yu-Na were judged for their programs and their performances. The gap in their existing program elements was so large to begin with, Mao couldn't overcome it. Was Mao held down by the judges here? Only by herself. At this competition, I think if Mao had skated with one hand tied behind her back, she wouldn't have been as handicapped in the free skate. We all know she is capable of more than what she showed in these programs.

    If the judges felt that a clean performance of _that program_ from Mao should have been rewarded with very high PCS, they would have done it at 4CCs, but they did not. She didn't break 130 there and she had both triple axels ratified. Yu-na did not compete there, so it had nothing to do with her. And again, at the Olympics, Mao received the lowest PCS of the 3 medalists--lower than Joannie's, but it had nothing to do with her jumping mistakes, but rather everything else that made up the program. Mao and others might have assumed it was because of the errors, but 4ccs and Worlds shows it was not.

    The judges have been consistent in judging Mao's _program_ throughout the season. I think the judges have been generous with Mao's PCS marks and have factored in the difficulty of the triple axel already, given that her program is relatively thin, compared to not only programs by other skaters, but to Mao herself in 2006-2008. This is a system that punishes and rewards for all the elements, and Mao simply skating clean is not enough to get high rewards for her program components.

    Btw, Michelle throughout her career changed up her programs when the feedback from the judges wasn't positive. Though there were published reports/rumors throughout the season that Mao would, she never did. If she had, the judges would have rewarded her.

  11. #1466
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    And Yu-Na outskated Mao AND Carolina at 2008 Worlds in the free, as seen in her TES, and yet her lovely program were not rewarded with the highest PCS scores. Those went to Mao (who fell) and she got virtually the same as Carolina (who had multiple jump errors). Mao and Carolina received high PCS marks despite their errors because PCS, as it is defined, does not have a direct relationship to jumping errors. Looking at their programs and skating ability back then, I wouldn't object to Mao receiving such high PCS if Yu-Na had received _equal_ PCS, but the margins between them were so slight that the difference in PCS meant Yu-Na had to receive bronze. So I think there that it wasn't the case that Mao was held up through PCS but rather that Yu-Na was held down.

    Judging bias can certainly come into play, but PCS is not ordinals--judges are not supposed to score skaters in relation to other skaters. Mao and Yu-Na were judged for their programs and their performances. The gap in their existing program elements was so large to begin with, Mao couldn't overcome it. Was Mao held down by the judges here? Only by herself. At this competition, I think if Mao had skated with one hand tied behind her back, she wouldn't have been as handicapped in the free skate. We all know she is capable of more than what she showed in these programs.

    If the judges felt that a clean performance of _that program_ from Mao should have been rewarded with very high PCS, they would have done it at 4CCs, but they did not. She didn't break 130 there and she had both triple axels ratified. Yu-na did not compete there, so it had nothing to do with her. And again, at the Olympics, Mao received the lowest PCS of the 3 medalists--lower than Joannie's, but it had nothing to do with her jumping mistakes, but rather everything else that made up the program. Mao and others might have assumed it was because of the errors, but 4ccs and Worlds shows it was not.

    The judges have been consistent in judging Mao's _program_ throughout the season. I think the judges have been generous with Mao's PCS marks and have factored in the difficulty of the triple axel already, given that her program is relatively thin, compared to not only programs by other skaters, but to Mao herself in 2006-2008. This is a system that punishes and rewards for all the elements, and Mao simply skating clean is not enough to get high rewards for her program components.

    Btw, Michelle throughout her career changed up her programs when the feedback from the judges wasn't positive. Though there were published reports/rumors throughout the season that Mao would, she never did. If she had, the judges would have rewarded her.
    Thanks for sharing your views. I think you make many good points.

  12. #1467
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    Somewhere in there, the actual quality of the performance needs to be taken into account.
    What you mean by "actual quality"? I believe the total score is the quality of the whole performance. How it can contain some other "quality" in it?

    I remember looking at the marks and Yu-na did get slightly higher P/E marks. And that's just ridiculous. Seniorita was there, and I'm sure she will tell you.
    Again, they received the same marks for P/E. If you don't believe me, you can look at the protocol. Sometimes we remember things incorrectly, it happens with me all the time
    Yuna got slightly higher marks for almost everything in PCS (and for Choreography and Interpretation not slightly), but in P/E they got exactly the same points.

    Mao out skated Yu-na, Mao out skated Yu-na by a lot...
    Is that really obvious?
    The PCS are not being influenced, generally, by jumps and other purely technical elements... If we watch the performances of Yuna and Mao, without looking at their jumps (and therefore, there is no fall of Yuna as it comes from jump, as well as the popped Axel of Yuna and downgraded Axel of Mao), I don't think this is so obvious. Generally, Yuna was, at least, faster and then she had a lot of artistic elements which Mao... It's not like she can't do them, but her choreography doesn't have them. So she can't get points for them, obviously.

    It's interesting to look at the SP points. Yuna Kim who had a lot of errors, received 30.28 at PCS, while Mao got 30.96 and Laura Lepisto 29.32. Mirai Nagasu got 30.20.

    You may say that judges were generous to Yuna and there would be a lot of logic here. But only on the first sight. If we watch the actual performance, you will see that Yuna was acting until the end. She never gave up and successfully executed all artistic elements with her almost usual quality. We should differentiate clearly the technical mistakes from the will to perform. One thing is to abort the spiral because you may fall if you do it, and other is to finish your program out of the character and absolutely lost. Yuna didn't do the last thing. She got tons of negative GOEs and her technical marks were really low by her standards. Yet the judges were kind and didn't give her low GOEs for her 3-3 combination which was just dangerous for her health, but that's the only thing where they were kind.
    But somewhere in the PCS if the system is going to be fair, there has to be something that takes into account the actual performance. So that a top skater isn't guaranteed an 8 point PCS cushion or higher even when they are skating sloppy and mopping up the floor.
    I agree with this, but isn't it like that already? The only possibility to show skating skill and etc is to show them in actual performance. Of course judges know the past performances, but it's also true that if a skater has great skating skill (which is the case for the top skaters) is really hard for them to mess up that bad. I mean, even if someone falls while doing a jump you see that he's not doing for the first time, so you can see the "skating skills" anyway. It's very hard for Mao, Yuna, Miki, etc, to be so bad that their technical and artistic quality would not be presented. That's almost impossible.
    Particularly Yuna never had a real meltdown. You may disagree, but even what happened during SA or this recent World's SP can't be considered meltdowns because other skaters can show you what a real meltdown is.
    And then you have another lesser known skater who skates lights out and loses because the PCS cushion made it nearly impossible for them to even have shot.
    I think, we need an example here. And Yuna with Mao can't be examples here, because they both are really well known and exceptional skaters. What are you talking about is mostly theory, but to prove that this is really happening we need an unknown skater who skated lights out and couldn't win.

    But how many times does Choregraphy/Transitions need to be rewarded. It gets rewarded in GOE. And it gets rewarded in Choregraphy, and it gets rewarded in Transitions. It also gets rewarded in skating skills? Why does it need to be rewarded a fourth time?
    I'm a new fan, so I may not understand things, but how in the World choreography is rewarded in GOE? As I understand it, GOE rewards only the execution of technical elements, like the height of the jumps, the ice coverage during spins, the length of the jumps, etc. It can also reward the difficult entrance into the element and difficult exit from it, but that has more to do with technical ability than with the choreography.

    Skating skills are for skating skills, not for choreography. For sure.

    Besides if someone is very messy, that means that they couldn't execute the program well.
    You can be messy by different ways. If you mess the jump, you get negative GOE, etc. If you are mess at acting, you get low PCS. I guess.

  13. #1468
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Wow, I've been away for a few days, and boy... this thread has a life of its own!

    Anyway, I thought Laura over at the Required Elements blog did a good explanation on why Yu-na might have been slightly overmarked in PCS (also some other fun analysis of Worlds as well.) This is pretty much my take as well. I think Yu-na probably still won PCS, but only by a point or point and a half at best. (That would have had Mao win the FS overall).

    The legacy discussion has been interesting as well. It's one of those things where only time will tell. I don't think anyone could have predicted that Michelle would be in skating for 10 years and win so many titles and delight fans with so many beautiful programs.

    What we can say right now about Yu-na is that she has raised awareness of figure skating in her home country (a good thing), she has left a financial future for the figure skating program ( also a good thing) and that she is one of the first skaters to truly take advantage of the new system (for it's good and bad thing things).

    I do hope she keeps skating, because I think that after this Worlds, she'll realize (with some talks with Brian Orser) that there is more to work for.

  14. #1469
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    And Yu-Na outskated Mao AND Carolina at 2008 Worlds in the free, as seen in her TES, and yet her lovely program were not rewarded with the highest PCS scores. Those went to Mao (who fell) and she got virtually the same as Carolina (who had multiple jump errors).
    By a lot of accounts by those who were there. Yu-na was not her normal self at 2008 worlds. Her skating didn't have as much flow as it usually has. By the footwork section, Yu-na was sloowww. Whereas Mao sold hers. After Mao's fall, she didn't get up on the performance. Plus, both Mao and Yu-na had one major error. Yu-na a popped jump, and Mao her fall. However, Kostner's result is a case, in point from what I am saying.

    Reports were the opposite for Yu-na at this years worlds. Yu-na gave up on the performance after falling.

    I'm a new fan, so I may not understand things, but how in the World choreography is rewarded in GOE? As I understand it, GOE rewards only the execution of technical elements, like the height of the jumps, the ice coverage during spins, the length of the jumps, etc. It can also reward the difficult entrance into the element and difficult exit from it, but that has more to do with technical ability than with the choreography.
    Difficult entrances/transitions into jumps are part of choregraphy, arent they, and they are rewarded in GOEs. There is also a transition mark that it is rewarded, and a choregraphy mark. So given that there is all these marks where choregraphy and transitions are rewarded. It isn't ridiculous to think that P/E could perhaps reward who actually skated well. Did the person perform well to the crowd (its difficult to do this and execute the elements). Did the person execute well, skate clean. These things should be rewarded too, and not just P/E because they actually reflect the actual performance. I'm not saying someone going out there executing a great skate with hard choregraphy and a good performance, shouldn't get higher P/E marks than someone else but still.

    Brezina may not have had the complicated transitions Chan, or the quads Joubert had. But he performed his program better and there' a reason the crowd booed his marks. Its not like Chan or Joubert actually executed their difficulty well. He didn't really deserve the higher PCS, but somewhere in there, parts of the PCS could have maybe reflected that. Its really just a thought.

    Same with Adam Rippon vs Abbott. I felt Adam deserved to score higher in the free by a bit more. Jeremy is a great skater and his his choregraphy/transitions etc are harder. But Jeremy fell twice, and as far as I'm concerned the marks should have reflected that more.
    Last edited by bekalc; 04-01-2010 at 01:48 PM.

  15. #1470
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    By a lot of accounts by those who were there. Yu-na was not her normal self at 2008 worlds. Her skating didn't have as much flow as it usually has. By the footwork section, Yu-na was sloowww. Whereas Mao sold hers. After Mao's fall, she didn't get up on the performance. Plus, both Mao and Yu-na had one major error. Yu-na a popped jump, and Mao her fall. However, Kostner's result is a case, in point from what I am saying.

    Reports were the opposite for Yu-na at this years worlds. Yu-na gave up on the performance after falling.
    2008 worlds: that could be a whole other debate in itself, but I don't need firsthand accounts to know that Mao and Yu-Na's errors there were not equal. Yu-Na popped a jump and went on, Mao fell without ever getting into the air for the the triple axel, and then took a significant time to skate around the rink and recover. More time than Yu-na took to recover from her fall on the salchow at these worlds. Mao absolutely did recover very well there (and I happily agree with her overall win), but she is benefiting from the Sasha Cohen Olympics 2006 LP rule, which is if you fall at the beginning of your program and perform everything else adequately, your performance is "brave" and an "amazing" comeback.

    If, on the other hand, you fall in the second half of your performance, then your performance can be characterized as "giving up" (see also: Michelle Kwan, 2002 Olympics -- not that I agree but I do recall some media, i.e. Phil Hersh, saying as much). I don't really see how Yu-Na could be characterized as "giving up" on the performance when after the salchow, she whipped around the rink into a beautiful triple lutz, complete with gorgeous extension on the landing. Yu-na didn't skip anything in her program other than what she couldn't do because of the fall and the axel turned waltz jump.

    I highly respect Mao and loved seeing the sparkle in her eye at the gala. I am hoping that she will come back next season with programs worthy of her brilliant talent. As I said before, her PCS marks at 4CCs is proof that the judges found her program lacking--not her ability, and worlds here is just confirmation of that. It has nothing to do with Yu-na and everything to do with her program content.

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