Ladies - LP

Mathman said:

As sensible as that strategy sounds, I have never seen the USFSA follow it, so I don't think that "usual" is the right word.

The US will have no seeded skaters in ladies next year (Last year Rachael was seeded, so some of the choice was taken off the table). The only real choice the USFSA will have is who to invite to Skate America. I think it will be Mirai and Rachael, if Rachael competes -- Mirai and Ashley otherwise. (Just my guess.)

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It sounds like Rachael is strongly considering taking a year off before going to college. Is it bad that I kind of want her to go to college next year? It's nothing against Rachael but she's just kind of boring and I'd like to see some of the other ladies have a chance to go to Worlds. Also, she seems oddly fine with the mediocre scores she's been getting recently, which is unusual for her. I don't know what's going on.

silverlake22 said:

It sounds like Rachael is strongly considering taking a year off before going to college. Is it bad that I kind of want her to go to college next year? It's nothing against Rachael but she's just kind of boring and I'd like to see some of the other ladies have a chance to go to Worlds. Also, she seems oddly fine with the mediocre scores she's been getting recently, which is unusual for her. I don't know what's going on.

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Yeah, I find her kind of blah too. Sorry if I offend anyone.

Tinymavy15 said:

If Racheal does not do the GP which I find likely, Mirai will have the pressure of being the top american lady. I think she will certainly be given SA. Ashley i guess is next in line with Sasha if she decides to compete (yeah right). I have a feeling they might throw Caroline into SA with Mirai and play up the rivalry angle...not that there is one anymore.

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Christina will also likely be on the SGP next year, and maybe Alissa too if she doesn't retire? Also we don't know about Agnes. I'm thinking the second SA spot will probably go to Gilles though because I think she'll only get one GP next season. Also, Amanda Dobbs will likely get events. Bebe maybe will get one GP if she doesn't retire.

Olympia said:

I just watched both long programs. I'm no great shakes as a jump analyst, so I'll leave that to the rest of you. One thing I noticed is that Mao has really splendid carriage, especially during her spiral. I also prefer her arm positions and movements to YuNa's. I don't know how to describe this in any technical way, but YuNa seems to lead with her shoulders, rather than carrying through all the way to her fingertips, as Mao does. On the other hand, of course, YuNa has those gargantuan, spacious jumps. Also, her music and choreography are much more to my liking, especially in the Gershwin. In terms of projection of personality, YuNa projects serenity, while Mao seems to exude determination. It's a delight to see Mao at her best as she was this weekend, but YuNa was no slouch, either. It wasn't her peak performance, but as one of you said, you can't have the skate of your life every time, and YuNa gave us that for the Olympics.

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:thumbsup: Good posting! This is what I call "constructive criticism".

brianjyw said:

I apologize if I offended you in anyway. I was just curious why people think that Yuna's PCS scores are not deserved. I respect other people's opinions and ideas only if they can back up their statements. Otherswise, they are doing nothing but bashing, IMO.:think:

PS. Thank you for correcting my typo. I feel really stupid.

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I should also apologize for questioning if you're a skating fan. I guess I was a bit irritated, but let's call it a truce. :thumbsup:

brianjyw said:

Do you really believe that Mao's IN and PE should be the same as Yuna's IN and PE when Yuna didn't make those mistakes? IMO, I don't think majority of people would agree except for Mao bots.

Yuna got already peneralized for the mistakes on her PET and a bit on PCS as you suggested it should. So I don't understand why you are whining about Yuna getting the same IN and PE as what Mao got.

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yuna deserves higher PCS if she skated the way she did at the oly. but she definitely do not deserve to get such high PCS with that freeskate :disapp: mao performed better for her freeskate ... ... it's almost as if PCS scores were given to yuna because of her reputation and what she did in past competitions

Norpido said:

I hope that Mao will take a good look on why she get low marks. She will have to perfect that landing on her trip X.

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I love to watch both Yuna and Mao skate,but Mao needs not only to look at the landings of the 3A,but also the takeoffs. There was a poll to-day on CBC asking if people thought 3A was the coming standard,but most considered an increased number of triple-triple combinations the way to go. After reading a recent sports medicine article I shudder at what Mao is doing to herself with her obsession over 3A,and wonder how many ladies,herself included will be crippled as a result.

Daniel5555 said:

rtureck


Well, some background also can be added to history books.

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Depends on what kind of history book, YuNa fan history books definietly, but not world championship history books.

By the way...
I just counted the number of gold medals that had Michelle Kwan without US medals, and she has 19 (not counting juniors and everything before 1995). And Yuna has 13 (not counting juniors)... Not that big difference considering that Michelle was for 10 years and Yuna only for 4.

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BTW, you are not behaving like a coach. You are fulfiling your job description as a YuNa fan. Seriously, tracking down MKs records, just to make a point that it took MK 10 years to win 4 more comps than YuNa's 4 yrs. (i.e. you are saying age and time adjusted YuNa is so much better than MK right) I am a MK fan and I don't even know how many comps she won. And if you are looking at a skater's legacy, why can't their jr and novice records be counted

originally posted by Daniel5555

Michelle Kwan had serious health problems because of competing so much. I don't want Yuna to go through the same thing, she has enough health problems already.

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Where on earth did you come to the conclusion tht MK had serious health problems b/c she competed too much?? Actually a huge part of her longevity is credited to her health. She had hip problems at the end of her competitive career tht was it. She even survive a death threat in France at the age of 15.

. If there will be new good skaters from Korea, that's because of Yuna. Mao will never have something like this.

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Huh?? Ito inspired many skaters in Japan, so did Yuka Sato (who BTW has much less medals than Mao). You can never count Mao out as an inspiration to future generations of Japanese skaters. Ito inspired many skaters in Japan to go for the triple axel, because she is one of the first (really don't remeber whether Ito or Harding landed the triple axel in comp first). Ito is also the first woman skater (along with Kristi) who landed the first triple lutz/triple toe in comp (since they both landed the 3z/3t in the same comp). Ito's inspiration in Japan include her tech advances. I think after Mao's historic triple 3A in one comp record that will be the new goal for future Japanese skaters

BTW, there was something on the ice when Mao skated. The Japanese commentator mentioned that during her steps. I was also distracted by that object. What was it? Was it a chunk of ice?

Artistry said:

I don't really understand how Mao's brilliant performance today would have scored LOWER than the tepid one given by Kim on PCS, especially when Kim totally went out of character following her mistakes.
Mao was on fire, but Kim wasn't inspired TODAY. This should be fairly reflected in the PCS marks, including the performance/execution mark, but it wasn't.

Thus, I believe that the system sucks and even though I'm happy for Mao, I think she is getting unfair treatment.
Was there a japanese judge on the panel, to balance the Korean one? I saw some really questionable GOE and PCS numbers from Mao from one particular judge.

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I think they are ~ 1 point apart, therefore practically that is tied. I think Mao was on fire and artistically she was much better, but judges don't give points for art. I am OK with their scores.

What I can't understand is how Lepisto beat Miki Ando,. Johnny was so to the point, some US mid level skaters have better jumps than Lepisto.

Toby1Dawg said:

What are you trying to start chachacha? Costume was Vera Wang (cut and fit perfectly matching music of about clouds). Count how many different triples she did. She also spun in both directions. Who knows what would have happened had she skated later in the group. We just saw Lepisto get the bronze with a double loop double toe. Michelle's 98 program would have won gold at any other Olympics except Vancouver.

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I didn't trying to start anything. I just voice my opinion that Tara deserve her win. I think Tara won it fair and square. That's all. Costume by famous designer doesn't guarantee it always good. Just same like you said how good michelle it, but that doesn't mean she will win the olympic gold. It's foolish of you to presume that Michelle's 98 program would have won gold at any other olympics. The important IS that never happen and never will. She got to put it right time and right moment. She has to perform and proved that she is superior to other skater at that moment to win which she always failure to do so at all her olympic game. If you put it this way, then many many other skater would have won gold any other olympics except vancouver too. There are bunches of skaters that can do a clean 7 triple jumps without 3-3's in their career. They even clean than kwan for not step out on 1 jump.

YN fan said:

Janetfan, I agree that records and medals are huge attribute to a skater's legacy, but you are overlooking one thing though. The PERFORMANCE. I k but in my opinion, Yuna and Mao are also higher than Kristi or Tara in record book. I don't know maybe I'm just saying this because I'm loving this Yuna & Mao era. I'm hooked. but You can't deny the fact that Yuna & Mao are the best thing in skating right now.

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Kristi is the first woman skater to land triple lutz/triple toe in comp. She won worlds, olys and repeated a world gold. How can she be viewed in history objectively less than Yuna or Mao. Oh and she is a world gold medalist jr pairs. She excelled in 2 disciples at the highest level

brianjyw said:

It is very interesting to see why so many people here think that cleaning elements should garantee higher PCS. I am not saying that they are totally irrelavant but not as much as some of posters here think they should be. Otherwise, what is the point of having PCS? We should just get rid of music and PCS and evaluate only skater's athletic skills.:think:

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It depends how the element is being unclean. To me a UR jump that is landed and no disturbance of the flow of the program is very different from a popped jump or a fall

Olympia said:

I just watched both long programs. I'm no great shakes as a jump analyst, so I'll leave that to the rest of you. One thing I noticed is that Mao has really splendid carriage, especially during her spiral.

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Mao has great carriage and some of the best flexibility in the world among competitive skaters (of course not counting Caroline or Mirai). But does carriage and flexibility generate points under the current system?

On the other hand, of course, YuNa has those gargantuan, spacious jumps.

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This is something that carries points under the current system

I think that Yuna was overscored in her PCS at this time. As Tracy put it, there was something missing. She did not seem to be skating from the heart when she was doing the choreos and did not have much tension, stretch, or care. Her skating looked slow and tired. When she exited from failed jumps, she did not bother to do the checking position and just let it go exhaustedly. These little details give unfinished impressions. Her PCS seemed overscored whereas she would deserve that TES as she landed difficult jumps with great flow and height. But her spins were noticeably slower than usual.

Lepisto was very fast, crisp, and expressive. She deserved good PCS. But she landed too few jumps even though the triples that she landed had great quality in height, speed, and flow.

I think that Miki deserved to get the Silver at this time. Her LP was clean except for one bad spin and she skated from the heart. She was not fast, but had decent speed. She was kind of slow going to the 3 Toe in the latter part, but it is more to do with the way the choreos are structured. Too long pause there, stopping off the flow of the program. Her PCS at SP was pretty low, too.

Olympia said:

I just watched both long programs. I'm no great shakes as a jump analyst, so I'll leave that to the rest of you. One thing I noticed is that Mao has really splendid carriage, especially during her spiral. I also prefer her arm positions and movements to YuNa's. I don't know how to describe this in any technical way, but YuNa seems to lead with her shoulders, rather than carrying through all the way to her fingertips, as Mao does.

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You stated this so eloquently. I think Mao hits a lot of gorgeous positions. I love her spirals and spins more than Yu-Na's. They're very crisp and finished off. She also has a lot of spring in her jumps. Not many people agree with me, but I actually loved the Bells of Moscow program from Mao. It's different from the usual fare--dark, moody, experimental. Yu-Na has more power in her jumps, and if there is something I'd like to see Yu-Na improve, it is the finishing of the spins and spirals. I hope both these ladies continue to develop and grow with time.

chachacha said:

I didn't trying to start anything. I just voice my opinion that Tara deserve her win. I think Tara won it fair and square. That's all. Costume by famous designer doesn't guarantee it always good. Just same like you said how good michelle it, but that doesn't mean she will win the olympic gold. It's foolish of you to presume that Michelle's 98 program would have won gold at any other olympics. The important IS that never happen and never will. She got to put it right time and right moment. She has to perform and proved that she is superior to other skater at that moment to win which she always failure to do so at all her olympic game. If you put it this way, then many many other skater would have won gold any other olympics except vancouver too. There are bunches of skaters that can do a clean 7 triple jumps without 3-3's in their career. They even clean than kwan for not step out on 1 jump.

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I agree that Tara had that special spark that night and deserve gold that night in Nagano. I guess I'm as foolish as Scott Hamilton, Curt Browning, Peggy Fleming, Dick Button, and pretty much every skating expert who commentated on the recent olympics. Arakawa's safe and slow 5 triple program? Oksana's two footed no triple triple win? Kristi won in a splatfest? I still say MIchelle's simple powder blue dress was perfect for that Lyra Angelica music. Bunchs of 7 triple programs? Like who? Michelle did all the triples except the axel. Who does that? Bunches? lol

jeanettetan said:

yuna deserves higher PCS if she skated the way she did at the oly. but she definitely do not deserve to get such high PCS with that freeskate :disapp: mao performed better for her freeskate ... ... it's almost as if PCS scores were given to yuna because of her reputation and what she did in past competitions

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Would you care to explain what you mean by "that freeskate"? You can't get your point across if don't back up your argument with evidence in a logical and meaning way.:think:

You may be right if messing up one or two elements should be detrimental to PCS. Contrary to what some of posters here believe, however, PCS scores are affected in relatively small scale by failed elements and IMO it should be that way. Stakers are already being penalized heavily on their TES for their mistakes. If you think that a skater should be also penalized on their PCS for their mistakes as much as on their TES, we might as well ditch music and PCS and just keep TES only, IMO.

To illustrate how PCS works, Mao, with two mistakes in LP, got 71.76 at the Olympics while Mirai, with clean LP, got 60.56. According to your logic, Mao should have gotten much less PCS score than 60.56, which means Mao shouldn't have won the Silver, or maybe out of the podium depending on how detrimental the two mistakes should be to PCS. This may sound absurd to most of posters here, but that is what some posters are suggesting. Can I go even as low as saying PCS scores are given to Mao because of her reputation and what she did in past competitions (please understand that this is not what I really think about Mao's performance at the Olympics. I think Mao got what she deserved)?

I often find many people jump to a conclusion that a skater with a mistake should get less PCS than someone else with a clean skate. However, the current judging system doesn't work that way. Otherwise, a skater with a clean skate will win over all other skaters with a mistake or two but with higher quality. At that point, there is no point in having music and PCS in figure skating, IMHO.

For those who complain about PCS without any logical foundation, please think about this: would you rather have FS with less-than-perfect PCS or FS with perfect TES but without music and PCS?

Please don't get me worng. I don't have any problem with people who do constructive criticism against the current judging system because I understand that it is not perfect and still in the making. I am only against those who just use the not-so-perfect judging system as a way to bash a certain skater.

PS. All the scores above are PCS scores.

Bennett said:

BTW, there was something on the ice when Mao skated. The Japanese commentator mentioned that during her steps. I was also distracted by that object. What was it? Was it a chunk of ice?

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i noticed that too ... ... but can't figure out what that was