Ladies - LP | Page 59 | Golden Skate

Ladies - LP

jeanettetan

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Would you care to explain what you mean by "that freeskate"?:confused: You can't get your point across if don't back up your argument with evidence in a logical and meaning way.:think:

You may be right if messing up one or two elements should be detrimental to PCS. Contrary to what some of posters here believe, however, PCS scores are affected in relatively small scale by failed elements and IMO it should be that way. Stakers are already being penalized heavily on their TES for their mistakes. If you think that a skater should be also penalized on their PCS for their mistakes as much as on their TES, we might as well ditch music and PCS and just keep TES only, IMO.

To illustrate how PCS works, Mao, with two mistakes in LP, got 71.76 at the Olympics while Mirai, with clean LP, got 60.56. According to your logic, Mao should have gotten much less PCS score than 60.56, which means Mao shouldn't have won the Silver, or maybe out of the podium depending on how detrimental the two mistakes should be to PCS. This may sound absurd to most of posters here, but that is what some posters are suggesting. Can I go even as low as saying PCS scores are given to Mao because of her reputation and what she did in past competitions (please understand that this is not what I really think about Mao's performance at the Olympics. I think Mao got what she deserved)?

I often find many people jump to a conclusion that a skater with a mistake should get less PCS than someone else with a clean skate. However, the current judging system doesn't work that way. Otherwise, a skater with a clean skate will win over all other skaters with a mistake or two but with higher quality. At that point, there is no point in having music and PCS in figure skating, IMHO.

For those who complain about PCS without any logical foundation, please think about this: would you rather have FS with less-than-perfect PCS or FS with perfect TES but without music and PCS?

Please don't get me worng. I don't have any problem with people who do constructive criticism against the current judging system because I understand that it is not perfect and still in the making. I am only against those who just use the not-so-perfect judging system as a way to bash a certain skater.

PS. All the scores above are PCS scores.


in short, yuna skated from heart at the oly and i enjoyed her LP (freeskate) even though i never liked her program this season. This might be due to the fact that I love her LP last season so much that I'm expecting alot from her. On the other hand, I felt mao's LP was better performed (better performed here does not refer to not falling), even though I don't like this music for her.

the PCS given out at the oly were ridiculous and I don't understand it either. It seems like it's given out based on how much a skater has achieved in their PAST competitions (this seems to be reflected in the PCS given to yuna and mao at worlds LP)

This is totally my opinion, you don't have to believe in whatever I say
 

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
i think yuna's PCS was almost 3 points more tham mao's PCS ... ... i find this ridiculous.

ITA that miki should be 3rd

But it is nothing compared to what Mao got at the Olympics. Mao, with her two mistakes, or should I say three, got 67.04 while Mirai, without any mistakes, got 60.56. That's 6+ points difference. How can you top that? :think:

Please keep in mind that this happened while Mirai beat Mao on TES - 65.83 for Nagasu and 64.68 for Mao. :confused:

This clearly shows that a higer TES score doesn't necessarily mean a higer PCS score.:biggrin:

So would you please stop questioning why Yuna got higher PCS score at the World than Mao got unless if you can explain why Mao got higher PCS than what Nagasu got at the Olympics?:sheesh:

You will look like a basher if you keep questioning Yuna's PCS while being unable to explain why Mao got such a higher PCS score than Mirai did.:think:
 
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TT_Fin

The second worst besserwisser in the world
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Country
Finland
Well, I got angry attacks when I said in Finnish Forum (not ice skating, other hobby) that 3 triples are not worth of medal. But I am not unpatriotic, I am realistic. It is not good signal for young skaters. "Well, I can't jump but if I have good spins and steps and look elegant, I can medal with couple of easy triples". It is not good.

I feel Laura was rewarded because her lz was ok this time. Not excellent, but ok.
 
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brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
the PCS given out at the oly were ridiculous and I don't understand it either. It seems like it's given out based on how much a skater has achieved in their PAST competitions (this seems to be reflected in the PCS given to yuna and mao at worlds LP)

This is totally my opinion, you don't have to believe in whatever I say

First of all, I agree with you on that scores were generously given to skaters at the Olympics, which seems fine as long as placements are done correctly. I don't think there is a skater who cares more about their score than their placement IMO (who knows?) :rolleye:

Secondly, it seems like you don't know why Mao got such a higher score (11.20 points higher to be exact) than Nagasu while Nagasu's TES was higher than Mao's. And you speculated that it might have something to do with their PAST competitions and they might have reflected in the PCS given to yuna and mao at worlds LP.:think:

In that case, your speculation is not too far from mine, so don't worry about me not believing in your opinion. :biggrin:

If you had that understanding then I am wondering why you stated that "i think yuna's PCS was almost 3 points more tham mao's PCS ... ... i find this ridiculous." It was apparent that you were just bashing Yuna rather than pointing out a problem with PCS in a constructive and logicial manner. I hope you didn't mean that though.:) To be honest, what is your point in saying that?

If I were you I would have stated that "it seems like the current judging system has been penalizing younger skaters with only a few international competitions by giving more PCS points to those who have been in a lot of international competitions and hence had more chance to get higher PCS" even though this may not be always true because in Yuna and Mao's case, they got relatively high PCS scores in their early senior international competitions back in 2006-7 if I am not mistaken (please correct me if I am off here).:eek:hwell:
 

wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
But it is nothing compared to what Mao got at the Olympics. Mao, with her two mistakes, or should I say three, got 71.76 while Mirai, without any mistakes, got 60.56. That's whooping 11.20 points difference. How can you top that? :think:

Please keep in mind that this happened while Mirai beat Mao on TES - 65.83 for Nagasu and 64.68 for Mao. :confused:

This clearly shows that a higer TES score doesn't necessarily mean a higer PCS score.:biggrin:

So would you please stop questioning why Yuna got higher PCS score at the World than Mao got unless if you can explain why Mao got higher PCS than what Nagasu got at the Olympics?:sheesh:

You will look like a basher if you keep questioning Yuna's PCS while being unable to explain why Mao got such a higher PCS score than Mirai did.:think:

What are you talking about??????

If you want to defnd your Queen, make sure you get the FACTS right!! Mao doesn't get the 71+ PCS. Its your, can do no wrong queen did!! In fact, Mao PCS was only third. Joannie get the second highest with 67 range and Mao only get 66 range. So with mistake on bad landing on the 3F and poped jump on 3T, it's fair!! Yuna won the high PCS mark with not a single mistake. Everyone can live with that!

This FS, she had a fall and poped a jump and with 'pulling what the heck m doing here after poped jump' and still get 66+?? This is what most peoples are skeptical about the judging! Even in the Sp, a clean Mao can't beat badly skated SP, even by junior standard is less than one point?? Yuna PCS should be even lower than Calrolina!!
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
So many bitter posts around here! All I can say is I'm proud of Yuna for competing and had guts to even show up!

Who really cares about the scores anyway? A win is a win. Mao was better on this year's world championship. Yuna got the silver. Laura won bronze. End of the story. Now maybe we should volunteer to be the judges of this sport. It's seems like everyone is an expert. LOL.
 

mishieru07

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
This clearly shows that a higer TES score doesn't necessarily mean a higer PCS score.:biggrin:

The judges were on crack at the Olympics. Holy score inflation in all the disciplines; PBs and WRs everywhere.

I certainly agree that a higher TES shouldn't neccessarily equate to a high PCS score. I far prefer Yu Na over Mao but I think she was overmarked in PCS AS COMPARED TO MAO. I would certainly have given her lower scores on Performance and Execution at least; Yu Na wasn't rock solid unlike Mao and her errors really detracted from the performance. I also don't think Mao deserved lower Interpretation scores than Yu Na either; I hate her Bells of Moscow FS but her interpretation of it was really good in the FS, the best all season imo. Yu Na came across as a little flat last night, like she wasn't really listening to the music and just going through the motions. You can probably make an argument for Skating Skills and Choreography as well. Yu Na has most transitions so I'm okay with her placing ahead of Mao on that.

For reference, here's the PCS judging criteria: http://www3.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

So in your opinion, how would you have marked Mao vs Yu Na and why? I fail to understand how Yu Na deserves higher PCS for such an uninspired skate. And this comes from someone who has loved Yu Na since 2007.
 

mcc

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
I think that Yuna was overscored in her PCS at this time. As Tracy put it, there was something missing. She did not seem to be skating from the heart when she was doing the choreos and did not have much tension, stretch, or care. Her skating looked slow and tired. When she exited from failed jumps, she did not bother to do the checking position and just let it go exhaustedly. These little details give unfinished impressions. Her PCS seemed overscored whereas she would deserve that TES as she landed difficult jumps with great flow and height. But her spins were noticeably slower than usual.

Lepisto was very fast, crisp, and expressive. She deserved good PCS. But she landed too few jumps even though the triples that she landed had great quality in height, speed, and flow.

I think that Miki deserved to get the Silver at this time. Her LP was clean except for one bad spin and she skated from the heart. She was not fast, but had decent speed. She was kind of slow going to the 3 Toe in the latter part, but it is more to do with the way the choreos are structured. Too long pause there, stopping off the flow of the program. Her PCS at SP was pretty low, too.

ITA.. Miki should have won Silver with almost clean program in LP. And Suzuki deserved Bronze with enjoyable and bright one. Yuna made 6 fatal mistakes in both SP and LP and Mao performed 2 clean programs. But point difference is under 7. That's ridiculous. I think all 3 Japanese ladies should have been on the podium. What a fantastic picture!
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
ITA.. Miki should have won Silver with almost clean program in LP. And Suzuki deserved Bronze with enjoyable and bright one. Yuna made 6 fatal mistakes in both SP and LP and Mao performed 2 clean programs. But point difference is under 7. That's ridiculous. I think all 3 Japanese ladies should have been on the podium. What a fantastic picture!

Um, what?
 

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
I think that Yuna was overscored in her PCS at this time. As Tracy put it, there was something missing. She did not seem to be skating from the heart when she was doing the choreos and did not have much tension, stretch, or care. Her skating looked slow and tired.

If she were slow and tired, she couldn't have been able to pull off those difficult jumps with such a great flow and height (your own words). You seem to have no idea what kind of speed and strenght is required to pull off those jumps do you?

When she exited from failed jumps, she did not bother to do the checking position and just let it go exhaustedly.

It appeared to me that she was just trying to find the right moment to synch up with the music. You obviously underestimate how hard it is to synch up after the fall. Didn't you see that she charged up at the right moment? And she did it like within a second or two after the fall.

These little details give unfinished impressions.

I believe Yuna was marked down for this on her PCS. Otherwise her PCS should have been higher.
Her PCS seemed overscored whereas she would deserve that TES as she landed difficult jumps with great flow and height.

Don't you think landing difficult jumps with great flow and height might have contributed to Yuna's PCS score despite the negative things you mentioned here?

But her spins were noticeably slower than usual.

I also believed that Yuna's PCS was marked down accordingly for that if it is true.

I think that Miki deserved to get the Silver at this time. Her LP was clean except for one bad spin and she skated from the heart. She was not fast, but had decent speed. She was kind of slow going to the 3 Toe in the latter part, but it is more to do with the way the choreos are structured. Too long pause there, stopping off the flow of the program. Her PCS at SP was pretty low, too.

LOL :laugh: Miki skaked from the heart and deserved to get the Silver with all this:

  1. one bad spin,
  2. not fast,
  3. kind of slow going to the 3 Toe, too long pause,
  4. stopping off the flow of the program

while Yuna did not deserve to get the Silver because:

  1. not bothering to do the checking position and just let it go exhaustedly - this is not true. she was merely waiting for the time to synch up with the music. It didn't even take a second or two.
  2. something missing - if you don't know what is missing, then nothing is missing. Fortunately, judges have bullets to mark up or down.
  3. not skating from the heart - how do you know for sure? Just because she didn't skaked as good as in the Olympics, you can't just assume she wasn't staking from the heart.
  4. looking slow and tired - if she had been slow and tired, she couldn't have been able to pull off those difficult jumps with such a great flow and height (your own words).
  5. having not much tension, stretch, or care - Yuna is not supposed to have tension in this program, don't you know that? She is supposed to fly across the ice effortlessly.

Anyway, what is your point here? Are you trying to point out there is something wrong with the judging system or judges or Yuna? Please be specific. Otherwise, you are apparently bashing a skater.
 

PolymerBob

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
I have a feeling they might throw Caroline into SA with Mirai and play up the rivalry angle...not that there is one anymore.

Isn't there? People thought the rivalry was over at the end of last season too when Nationals was Mirai's last event. Both girls, in fact all the girls, have their ups and downs.
 

viv

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
I think Miki should have won bronze, but silver would have been too much, regarding her SP. I am fine with Yuna getting high PCS in spite of her mistakes, because differences in presentation and technical merit are the reason we have TES and PCS. I also think they were a bit too high this evening, but not that much that she should have lost silver. Don't forget that everybody in front of her after SP made mistakes in the LP too, except Mao.
Yuna took her defeat with much more style I would have credited her, regarding the Eurosport interview she gave after her SP. She abandoned the spoiled little princess behaviour and showed that she can fight. Kudos for that.
I am very very happy for Mao, and I think it is a blessing for ladies skating that she won. Thinking Yuna may have won and got ridiculously overscored for the next four years up to Sochi just depressed me.
 
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Ginask8s

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Mao was really wonderful. I cant believe she can do those axels and keep her focus for everything else. Most men struggle with the axel. Unbelievable.
Miki skated the best I have seen her all year. I guess skating order affected her scores, although I know it shouldnt. I thought she would medal.
Yuna had a "Ive fallen and I cant get up" moment. I thought she did not skate like a champion. I dont mind that she made mistakes, but that giving up attitude stinks.
Laura was beautiful, but 3 doubles and a medal? She needs to talk to Mao about focus...
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Mao was really wonderful. I cant believe she can do those axels and keep her focus for everything else. Most men struggle with the axel. Unbelievable.
Miki skated the best I have seen her all year. I guess skating order affected her scores, although I know it shouldnt. I thought she would medal.
Yuna had a "Ive fallen and I cant get up" moment. I thought she did not skate like a champion. I dont mind that she made mistakes, but that giving up attitude stinks.
Laura was beautiful, but 3 doubles and a medal? She needs to talk to Mao about focus...

WTH? What else you want her to do? She didn't walk away from this competition. At least she had guts to compete unlike the past Olympic champions. :sheesh:
 

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
What are you talking about??????

If you want to defnd your Queen, make sure you get the FACTS right!! Mao doesn't get the 71+ PCS. Its your, can do no wrong queen did!!

I apologize for the wrong info. I should have double checked before posting. My bad. :cry:

Nonetheless, the point I was trying to make was ... why you guys keep saying that Yuna with two mistakes should have gotten much lower PCS than Mao while failing to explain why Mao with 2 mistakes got 6 more points on her PCS than what clean Mirai got at the Olympics.

This FS, she had a fall and poped a jump and with 'pulling what the heck m doing here after poped jump' and still get 66+??

Why can't Yuna get 3 more points than Mao while Mao can get 6 more points than Mirai who cleaned her LP?


This is what most peoples are skeptical about the judging!
Are you insinuating that so called "most peoples" think that Yuna's scores were fixed by judges at the worlds?
If you believe that judges didn't follow the guidelines correctly in order to place Yuna in a higher position when they scored Yuna, then we are in for a conspiracy. If so, I hope you have very convincing evidences. Otherwise, you will be remembered as just a basher or hoax. Remember it takes more than a couple of judges to pull it off under the current judging system. Besides, what kind of benefit would judges gain by moving Yuna up the chart?

Even in the Sp, a clean Mao can't beat badly skated SP, even by junior standard is less than one point?? Yuna PCS should be even lower than Calrolina!!

The same argument applies here. How can a skater, with 2 mistakes, get 6 more points than another skater with clean skating?

The bottom line is ... you have to remember we have two scorings - TES and PCS. How much of a failed element should be reflected in PCS score is something to be debated separately. I believe there should be some kind of guidelines about it and Yuna's score was evaluated according to the guidelines fair and square IMO. If you think otherwise, then it is going to be really ugly. Do you want to really go there?
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
ITA.. Miki should have won Silver with almost clean program in LP. And Suzuki deserved Bronze with enjoyable and bright one. Yuna made 6 fatal mistakes in both SP and LP and Mao performed 2 clean programs. But point difference is under 7. That's ridiculous. I think all 3 Japanese ladies should have been on the podium. What a fantastic picture!

:laugh: You do know the SP scores, right?
 

RumbleFish

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 11, 2010
KYN owns the ice right now, and last thing ISU want to do is piss her off and make her retire.
She is the crowd attendance and TV ratings, things that matter a lot to $peedy and the gang.
If you are a Japanese Asada fan not liking the status quo, you should go to a near by slot machine joints and lose whatever you have so Japanese slot machine operators can beef up their sponsorship money to $peedy.
Who knows? If you lose enough money, Asada might start getting all her 3As ratified. :laugh:

Aside from business, KYN does more than enough to justify her scores.
Simply put, she scored 130 in Turin while making 2 mistakes, whereas she scored 131 making 2 mistakes in LA last year.
So WTH is the problem? :laugh:
Some of you complain about her fall, but I'm amazed by your short memory, failing to remember that she flew across the ice moment after the fall and nailed a friken 2 point GOE triple Lutz.

BTW, Laura Lepisto won her bronze medal by looking fecking hot on ice, but she wouldn't had a chance if she wasn't better than Ando in most aspects other than jumps.
 
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cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
kyn owns the ice right now, and last thing isu want to do is piss her off and make her retire.
She is the crowd attendance and tv ratings, things that matter a lot to $peedy and the gang.
If you are a japanese asada fan not liking the status quo, you should go to a near by slot machine joints and lose whatever you have so japanese slot machine operators can beef up their sponsorship money to $peedy.
Who knows? If you lose enough money, asada might start getting all her 3as ratified. :laugh:

Aside from business, kyn does more than enough to justify her scores.
Simply put, she scored 130 in turin while making 2 mistakes, whereas she scored 131 making 2 mistakes in la last year.
So wth is the problem? :laugh:
Some of you complain about her fall, but i'm amazed by your short memory, failing to remember that she flew across the ice moment after the fall and nailed a friken 2 point geo triple lutz.

Btw, laura lepisto won her bronze medal by looking fecking hot on ice, but she wouldn't had a chance if she wasn't better than ando in most aspects other than jumps.

Amen! :laugh:
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
WTH? What else you want her to do? She didn't walk away from this competition. At least she had guts to compete unlike the past Olympic champions. :sheesh:
There is a past olys champ name Kristi who had the guts to compete and defended her world title too. So she won worlds, then olys and defended her world title. I won't call the other olys champ who chose not to show up at worlds after olys as "not having guts". They set goals for olys gold, acomplished it and moved on. OTOH, anyone who makes a committment for a competition should try their best to prepare, if they show up at a comp unprepared, what is the point? There are plenty of skaters from their country who want to have a chance at worlds, so if any olys champ who are not committed to the harsh training in between olys and worlds, they should go to Disney land, do dancing with the stars
 

RumbleFish

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 11, 2010
There is a past olys champ name Kristi who had the guts to compete and defended her world title too. So she won worlds, then olys and defended her world title. I won't call the other olys champ who chose not to show up at worlds after olys as "not having guts". They set goals for olys gold, acomplished it and moved on. OTOH, anyone who makes a committment for a competition should try their best to prepare, if they show up at a comp unprepared, what is the point? There are plenty of skaters from their country who want to have a chance at worlds, so if any olys champ who are not committed to the harsh training in between olys and worlds, they should go to Disney land, do dancing with the stars

You are making it sound as if KYN showed up to peel an orange sitting on the ice in Turin.
Oh, that lousy KYN, failing so badly only winning a feckin silver medal. :laugh:

I wouldn't say the situation was similar to Kristi's.
Kristi did not gave a performance of her life in Albertville, and the Worlds was in her home country.
She obviously at that time had more to prove than KYN has right now.
I don't know whether it had any influence in her showing up at the Worlds, but Kristi had less endorsement contracts than even Kerrigan IIRC.
 
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