Ladies - LP | Page 63 | Golden Skate

Ladies - LP

yunasashafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Hmm. I am trying to think of who these bunches of skaters might be, who have done a 7-triple program with no triple-triple. I believe that the only current skater who can do it is Akiko Shizuki.

Michelle did 7-triple programs eleven times in major competitions in her career. I am not so familiar with the records of Asada and Kim, so I am not sure how many times those skaters completed 7 triples. Not recently, I believe.

I've been trying to stay out of the craziness that is this thread. I just want to point out, though, that when Michelle did 7-triple programs, skaters were allowed up to 8 jumping passes (including the mandatory double axel). Skaters these days have only 7 passes. If you take out one pass for the double axel, that leaves six. Which means that unless you can do a triple-triple, the maximum number of triples you can get in is six.
 

ayayukiituka

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Did she really? The music itself is difficult to interpret. I think it would probably be more suited for men. The skating is supposed to exude strength and power. I don't it was accomplished because her skating seemed too soft and lyrical.

Maybe Mathman didn't compare to someone else but to old Mao herself.
i agree that Mao's skating is too soft and lyrical. however her own emotion in Bell program at this event more than in Olympic.
i was so much impressed because she was in the dark music. Though Bell cannot be a very right choice for her,she did it.
I'm sure that this makes her new level whatever music she will choose :)
 

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
MM. I've never read any of your retorts to go against the judges. You normally just roll out the protocols and say that's what happened.

I do agree with you and happy you can disagree with the judges.

People have their rights to disagree with the judges and I respect that. However, they should not have double standards when they disagree with the judges. Unfortunately, some of posters do have double standards and have been applying them to bash a player. They pretend they don't but it is cleary obvious they do. I can't stand a hypocrite.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
People have their rights to disagree with the judges and I respect that. However, they should not have double standards when they disagree with the judges. Unfortunately, some of posters do have double standards and have been applying them to bash a player. They pretend they don't but it is cleary obvious they do. I can't stand a hypocrite.
Jeez, chill out. You're calling the wrong person hypocritical. Mathman was only saying that he believes despite technical mistakes, a skater CAN do better in the Program Components than a clean skater (e.g. Mao vs. Mirai at the Olympics--Mirai is a bit too young to be the best Carmen.)

However, he is saying that YuNa did not perform her best at this World's, and that the PCS should have reflected that (more?) It's his opinion, but he's not being inconsistent.

Get a grip on your defensive impulses and try to understand what people are saying...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I've been trying to stay out of the craziness that is this thread. I just want to point out, though, that when Michelle did 7-triple programs, skaters were allowed up to 8 jumping passes (including the mandatory double axel). Skaters these days have only 7 passes. If you take out one pass for the double axel, that leaves six. Which means that unless you can do a triple-triple, the maximum number of triples you can get in is six.

I believe I mentioned this in all of my many posts on this topic. :laugh: For instance in post # 1225 above:

Mathman said:
Yes, I meant you can't come up to 7 triples unless you have a triple-triple combo or sequence, or a double Axel/triple combo or sequence, or a triple Axel....

Michelle actually did eight separate individual passes at both 1996 Worlds and 1998 Olympics (before they changed the rules to allow only seven.)

And 1222:

Mathman said:
...the question was about skaters who managed to come up with a way of doing 7 triples without a triple-triple. Under the current Zayak rules 7 triples is impossible without a triple Axel, a triple-triple, or a 2A-triple combo.
 

Daniel5555

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
nddandy
I agree with you, but I also would like to note that Mao's program at the end is not bad at all (and her performance at Worlds was brilliant). Also I feel that Mao still didn't show her full potential. So while I think that Yuna is better anyway, current Mao is not the best Mao at all yet. Probably the same applies to Yuna...
 

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
You make that sound like an accusation. :laugh: Am I a bad person if I decline to comment on whether I agree or disagree with something ?

Anyway...

On the issue of whether technical mistakes ought to affect the program components, I think it is worth considering the opposite situation, too.

Choreographers insert highlight elements strategically into the program to match musical climaxes. When a skater hits that big gorgeous quad BANG! right on the money, that can make or break the choreography.

IMO the choreography and interpretation marks should not given for what the coach and choreographer put on paper. It is up to the skater to deliver the goods. This cannot be done if technique is lacking.

A good case in point is Mirai’s Carmen LP performance at Worlds. Right at the most dramatic musical crescendo, Mirai does an Ina Bauer into a double Axel. If she hits it with panache, that definitely contributes to the overall effectiveness of the choreography.

If she falls :cry: the choreo, interpretation and performance turn to mush.

This is just observation. It appears that Mirai going into a double axel from an Ina Bauer is a little bit different from how Yuna does it. I believe Mira takes a couple of steps between an Ina Bauer and a double exel while Yuna does not take any steps.
 

yunasashafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
I believe I mentioned this in all of my many posts on this topic. :laugh: For instance in post # 1225 above:



And 1222:

Oops.. sorry. As I said, I did not go through all the 80+ pages :eek:hwell:
Anyway, congrats Mao! I am so proud of her :love:, my hat's off to her for sticking to her plan despite the doubters and making it work! That LP was just magical. Well deserved title.

And Yuna, great comeback!

By the way, I see this as some redemption for Mao and all the effort she's put to get out of her slump. And it is very special that it happened in Torino, the site of the last Olympics for which she was a favorite but could not participate :agree:

Ok, I'm out.. carry on ;)
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Oops.. sorry. As I said, I did not go through all the 80+ pages :eek:hwell:
Anyway, congrats Mao! I am so proud of her :love:, my hat's off to her for sticking to her plan despite the doubters and making it work! That LP was just magical. Well deserved title.

And Yuna, great comeback!

By the way, I see this as some redemption for Mao and all the effort she's put to get out of her slump. And it is very special that it happened in Torino, the site of the last Olympics for which she was a favorite but could not participate :agree:

Ok, I'm out.. carry on ;)

:thumbsup: Well-said. In my opinion, Mao has improved artistically. She's more passionate now in her programs then in the past. Unfortunately, her inconsistency recently and dark programs don't highlight her improvements.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
What do you mean by "youthful Mirai?" Are you suggesting that it is OK for Mao to get higher PCS score than Mirai just because Mirai is youthful?

In reading the criteria for the program components Performance/Execution, Interpretation, and Choreography/Composition, I think a satisfactory two-word summary might be the "artistic maturity" of the performance. This is not necessarily the same as the chronological age of the performer, of course.

If you can claim that Mao skated better despite the two mistakes at the Olympics than clean Mirai, don't you think the same logic should be also applied to Yuna as well - Yuna staked better, with respect to the criteria for the components than Mao at the worlds?

In my opinion Mao skated better than Mirai at the Olympics, with respect to the criteria for component scores.

In my opinion Mao skated better than Yu-na at Worlds, with respect to these criteria.

Others may disagree with one or the other or both of these opinions, of course.

When you stated "Mao skated better" you apparently believe that Mao's mistakes should not affect her PCS...

But it appears that you think Yuna's mistakes should affect her PCS. If so, don't you think you are hypocritical?

I am sorry if I gave you the impression of applying criteria differently for different skaters. My intention was quite the contrary. If you really want to know what I think about the proper way in which mistakes on elements (and conversely, well-done elements within the context of the choreography) ought to affect the program component scores, you can read post # 1228.

This is preferable to "assuming" you know what people think and calling them names. :cool:

(PS. But never mind all that. I go ballistic when people pick on Michelle, so I don't get mad when others have their favorites, too. It's all good. Peace, bro. (or sis.) :cool: )
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Mathman: I am curious about your inclusion of the word"youthful" in the following statement:

"Mao Asada scored higher in program components than the youthful Mirai Nagasu at the Olympics, despite some technical mistakes, because she skated better, with respect to the criteria for the components."

I believe I understand what you are saying - and I agree with it. But why did you use "youthful" in making this point? I think it may have been confusing.


Your follow up statement is something most posters agree with - that reputation scoring is wrong and skaters should get marked for how they skate at the event, and not on what they have done in the past.

ETA: I posted this right after your post above - I see your explantion.....

I wonder about Tara's "youthful" performance in Nagano - which didn't seem to hurt her ;)
 
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yunasashafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
In my opinion, Mao has improved artistically. She's more passionate now in her programs then in the past. Unfortunately, her inconsistency recently and dark programs don't highlight her improvements.

She definitely has. She's still not at the level Yuna is, but I believe we'll see a much improved Mao next season. I think she set a challenge to herself with the dark music and the 3As and did not want to back down (some might see this as stubborness, but whatever.. she succeeded). I don't think her interpretation of Bells is as good as what someone like Yuna would be able to do, but she's come a long way since last year.

And one more comment about PCs. I think whether we like to admit or not, reputation does factor into them. Judges see what they want to see, whether they are concious of this bias or not. And it's not only Yuna who might be affected by that. Just look at Mao's PCs from TEB and Cup of Russia .. I think anytime a skater is perceived to be great, they get a boost in their PCs. The boost, however, is no more than a couple of points. And this is not new. Much more atrocious PC inflation/undermarking happened under 6.0 to much bigger effect. At least in COP, the placement is usually right.

OK, now I am really out before I get sucked in :laugh:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Mathman: I am curious about your inclusion of the word"youthful" in the following statement:

"Mao Asada scored higher in program components than the youthful Mirai Nagasu at the Olympics, despite some technical mistakes, because she skated better, with respect to the criteria for the components."

I knew I wa getting myself in trouble. :laugh:

I should have put it this way. I thought that Mao's program, to that dark bombastic music, had the potential for the skater to demonstrate what I referred to as "artistic maturity."

Unfortunately, she did not accomplish this feat all season, giving the impression that the music and choreography were beyond the skill of her technique and the depth of her musical sensibilities.

What a joy when (in my opinion) she finally came fully to grips with her program, in the very last performance of the season.

In comparison, I thought both Mirai (youthful, flirty) and Yu-na (rather generic) took on less of a musical challenge for the Olympic season.

And just so I can keep my record intact, of mentioning Michelle in every post on this thread :laugh: , I felt the same way with Michelle's "Song of the Black Swan." I thought at the beginning of the season that Lori Nichol had given her music and choreography that was beyond her depth. And I kept on feeling that way all the way through U.S. nationals and up until Worlds.

Then suddenly, in the Worlds qualifying round she siezed that doggone bird by the throat and wrung its flippin' neck! :rock:

By the way, the Rachmaninov "Bells" was supposed to be Michelle's 2006 Olympic LP (also overseen by Tarrasova). We will never know what Michelle might have done with it. (I hope she would have gone with the piano version instead of full orchestra.)
 
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ayayukiituka

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
She definitely has. She's still not at the level Yuna is, but I believe we'll see a much improved Mao next season. I think she set a challenge to herself with the dark music and the 3As and did not want to back down (some might see this as stubborness, but whatever.. she succeeded). I don't think her interpretation of Bells is as good as what someone like Yuna would be able to do, but she's come a long way since last year.

And one more comment about PCs. I think whether we like to admit or not, reputation does factor into them. Judges see what they want to see, whether they are concious of this bias or not. And it's not only Yuna who might be affected by that. Just look at Mao's PCs from TEB and Cup of Russia .. I think anytime a skater is perceived to be great, they get a boost in their PCs. The boost, however, is no more than a couple of points. And this is not new. Much more atrocious PC inflation/undermarking happened under 6.0 to much bigger effect. At least in COP, the placement is usually right.

OK, now I am really out before I get sucked in :laugh:

I have a question to you. why do you compare Mao to Yuna?
Their programs are completely different and their skating style also.
So I think compare someone with someone else is nonsense even PCS part.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I wonder about Tara's "youthful" performance in Nagano - which didn't seem to hurt her ;)

Tara gave a great performance, and she deserved... she deser... she... (no, no, I can;t say it! ;) )

But on the issue of musical maturity, Tara "interpreted" the sound track from a couple of teen chick flicks. Her choreographer, Sandra Bezik, begged her to consider nore serious music, but in the end decided that if this is what floats Tara's boat, better to go with that than to push her into something too big for her.

Michelle, on the other hand, took on the challenge of the William Alwyn harp and strings concerto. Alwyn, not widely known, was nevertheless a modern classical composer of unexpected subtlety. This was his finest work (and the music that Lori Nichol wanted to hear playing when she marched past Saint Peter through the Pearly Gates. :) )
 

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Jeez, chill out. You're calling the wrong person hypocritical. Mathman was only saying that he believes despite technical mistakes, a skater CAN do better in the Program Components than a clean skater (e.g. Mao vs. Mirai at the Olympics--Mirai is a bit too young to be the best Carmen.)

However, he is saying that YuNa did not perform her best at this World's, and that the PCS should have reflected that (more?) It's his opinion, but he's not being inconsistent.

Get a grip on your defensive impulses and try to understand what people are saying...

Jeez, you should also chil out. Did I ever accuse Mathman of being hypocritical? I only stated that there are some posters who are hypocritical.:confused:
 

yunasashafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
I have a question to you. why do you compare Mao to Yuna?
Their programs are completely different and their skating style also.
So I think compare someone with someone else is nonsense even PCS part.

I am comparing Yuna's ability to interpret music to Mao's, not their programs. We've seen Yuna interpret different styles of music very successfully. Mao less so. That is partially the basis for evaluating PCs, isn't it?

I feel that every ladies thread eventually evolves into a MK thread. Not that it's bad though.

That just means MK is the standard against which everybody is judged :thumbsup:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Tara gave a great performance, and she deserved... she deser... she... (no, no, I can;t say it! ;) )

But on the issue of musical maturity, Tara "interpreted" the sound track from a couple of teen chick flicks. Her choreographer, Sandra Bezik, begged her to consider nore serious music, but in the end decided that if this is what floats Tara's boat, better to go with that than to push her into something too big for her.

Michelle, on the other hand, took on the challenge of the William Alwyn harp and strings concerto. Alwyn, not widely known, was nevertheless a modern classical composer of unexpected subtlety. This was his finest work (and the music that Lori Nichol wanted to hear playing when she marched past Saint Peter through the Pearly Gates. :) )

Sorry, good post and the first part made :laugh: :laugh:

I agree with most of what you are saying but I suspect it was Mirai's youthful - and as Joesitz previously described - "sassy" performance to 'Carmen" that helped her place fourth in Vancouver. We saw the same effect at Worlds as Mirai's "Pirates" SP, so full of "girlish charm" scored BIG with the judges.

A skater still has to deliver the goods which Mirai did not do in her LP at Worlds.
But Yuna skating with wonderful lightness, or Mao skating darkly can work and it depends ultimately on the way the program is skated. I believe the same could be said of younger skaters like Tara or Mirai.

Great skating and performing does not necessarily depend on age or even maturity. In the long run it helps and will typically win but we do see almost every season examples of younger skaters setting the rink on fire on a given night.

For the record - if I was judging back in '98 my vote would have gone to Michelle. :love:
 
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bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Mathman: I am curious about your inclusion of the word"youthful" in the following statement:

"Mao Asada scored higher in program components than the youthful Mirai Nagasu at the Olympics, despite some technical mistakes, because she skated better, with respect to the criteria for the components."

I believe I understand what you are saying - and I agree with it. But why did you use "youthful" in making this point? I think it may have been confusing.


Your follow up statement is something most posters agree with - that reputation scoring is wrong and skaters should get marked for how they skate at the event, and not on what they have done in the past.

ETA: I posted this right after your post above - I see your explantion.....

I wonder about Tara's "youthful" performance in Nagano - which didn't seem to hurt her ;)

I actually feel that Mirai's performance looks a bit less mature than Tara's performance. Because while Mirai's Carmen is very cute and shows off how charming she is, it also shows of her immaturity as well. She's essentially taking an iconic character like Carmen, and making her into a peppy happy person going to a ball! As many said: KinderCarmen.

In contrast, Tara choose a pretty piece of music, and she skated to it in a pretty way. The thing about Tara is I actually feel she was underrated artistically. She wasn't as good as Michelle's but she was starting to get better and better there. Tara did feel the music and the nuances of the music. And I think could have in time become quite good artistically. And her performance had a lot of excitement and risk.
 
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