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Thread: Ladies - LP

  1. #1246
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    nddandy
    I agree with you, but I also would like to note that Mao's program at the end is not bad at all (and her performance at Worlds was brilliant). Also I feel that Mao still didn't show her full potential. So while I think that Yuna is better anyway, current Mao is not the best Mao at all yet. Probably the same applies to Yuna...

  2. #1247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    You make that sound like an accusation. Am I a bad person if I decline to comment on whether I agree or disagree with something ?

    Anyway...

    On the issue of whether technical mistakes ought to affect the program components, I think it is worth considering the opposite situation, too.

    Choreographers insert highlight elements strategically into the program to match musical climaxes. When a skater hits that big gorgeous quad BANG! right on the money, that can make or break the choreography.

    IMO the choreography and interpretation marks should not given for what the coach and choreographer put on paper. It is up to the skater to deliver the goods. This cannot be done if technique is lacking.

    A good case in point is Mirai’s Carmen LP performance at Worlds. Right at the most dramatic musical crescendo, Mirai does an Ina Bauer into a double Axel. If she hits it with panache, that definitely contributes to the overall effectiveness of the choreography.

    If she falls the choreo, interpretation and performance turn to mush.
    This is just observation. It appears that Mirai going into a double axel from an Ina Bauer is a little bit different from how Yuna does it. I believe Mira takes a couple of steps between an Ina Bauer and a double exel while Yuna does not take any steps.

  3. #1248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I believe I mentioned this in all of my many posts on this topic. For instance in post # 1225 above:



    And 1222:
    Oops.. sorry. As I said, I did not go through all the 80+ pages
    Anyway, congrats Mao! I am so proud of her , my hat's off to her for sticking to her plan despite the doubters and making it work! That LP was just magical. Well deserved title.

    And Yuna, great comeback!

    By the way, I see this as some redemption for Mao and all the effort she's put to get out of her slump. And it is very special that it happened in Torino, the site of the last Olympics for which she was a favorite but could not participate

    Ok, I'm out.. carry on

  4. #1249
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    Quote Originally Posted by yunasashafan View Post
    Oops.. sorry. As I said, I did not go through all the 80+ pages
    Anyway, congrats Mao! I am so proud of her , my hat's off to her for sticking to her plan despite the doubters and making it work! That LP was just magical. Well deserved title.

    And Yuna, great comeback!

    By the way, I see this as some redemption for Mao and all the effort she's put to get out of her slump. And it is very special that it happened in Torino, the site of the last Olympics for which she was a favorite but could not participate

    Ok, I'm out.. carry on
    Well-said. In my opinion, Mao has improved artistically. She's more passionate now in her programs then in the past. Unfortunately, her inconsistency recently and dark programs don't highlight her improvements.

  5. #1250
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianjyw View Post
    What do you mean by "youthful Mirai?" Are you suggesting that it is OK for Mao to get higher PCS score than Mirai just because Mirai is youthful?
    In reading the criteria for the program components Performance/Execution, Interpretation, and Choreography/Composition, I think a satisfactory two-word summary might be the "artistic maturity" of the performance. This is not necessarily the same as the chronological age of the performer, of course.

    If you can claim that Mao skated better despite the two mistakes at the Olympics than clean Mirai, don't you think the same logic should be also applied to Yuna as well - Yuna staked better, with respect to the criteria for the components than Mao at the worlds?
    In my opinion Mao skated better than Mirai at the Olympics, with respect to the criteria for component scores.

    In my opinion Mao skated better than Yu-na at Worlds, with respect to these criteria.

    Others may disagree with one or the other or both of these opinions, of course.

    When you stated "Mao skated better" you apparently believe that Mao's mistakes should not affect her PCS...

    But it appears that you think Yuna's mistakes should affect her PCS. If so, don't you think you are hypocritical?
    I am sorry if I gave you the impression of applying criteria differently for different skaters. My intention was quite the contrary. If you really want to know what I think about the proper way in which mistakes on elements (and conversely, well-done elements within the context of the choreography) ought to affect the program component scores, you can read post # 1228.

    This is preferable to "assuming" you know what people think and calling them names.

    (PS. But never mind all that. I go ballistic when people pick on Michelle, so I don't get mad when others have their favorites, too. It's all good. Peace, bro. (or sis.) )

  6. #1251
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    Mathman: I am curious about your inclusion of the word"youthful" in the following statement:

    "Mao Asada scored higher in program components than the youthful Mirai Nagasu at the Olympics, despite some technical mistakes, because she skated better, with respect to the criteria for the components."

    I believe I understand what you are saying - and I agree with it. But why did you use "youthful" in making this point? I think it may have been confusing.


    Your follow up statement is something most posters agree with - that reputation scoring is wrong and skaters should get marked for how they skate at the event, and not on what they have done in the past.

    ETA: I posted this right after your post above - I see your explantion.....

    I wonder about Tara's "youthful" performance in Nagano - which didn't seem to hurt her
    Last edited by janetfan; 03-28-2010 at 08:53 PM.

  7. #1252
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    In my opinion, Mao has improved artistically. She's more passionate now in her programs then in the past. Unfortunately, her inconsistency recently and dark programs don't highlight her improvements.
    She definitely has. She's still not at the level Yuna is, but I believe we'll see a much improved Mao next season. I think she set a challenge to herself with the dark music and the 3As and did not want to back down (some might see this as stubborness, but whatever.. she succeeded). I don't think her interpretation of Bells is as good as what someone like Yuna would be able to do, but she's come a long way since last year.

    And one more comment about PCs. I think whether we like to admit or not, reputation does factor into them. Judges see what they want to see, whether they are concious of this bias or not. And it's not only Yuna who might be affected by that. Just look at Mao's PCs from TEB and Cup of Russia .. I think anytime a skater is perceived to be great, they get a boost in their PCs. The boost, however, is no more than a couple of points. And this is not new. Much more atrocious PC inflation/undermarking happened under 6.0 to much bigger effect. At least in COP, the placement is usually right.

    OK, now I am really out before I get sucked in

  8. #1253
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Mathman: I am curious about your inclusion of the word"youthful" in the following statement:

    "Mao Asada scored higher in program components than the youthful Mirai Nagasu at the Olympics, despite some technical mistakes, because she skated better, with respect to the criteria for the components."
    I knew I wa getting myself in trouble.

    I should have put it this way. I thought that Mao's program, to that dark bombastic music, had the potential for the skater to demonstrate what I referred to as "artistic maturity."

    Unfortunately, she did not accomplish this feat all season, giving the impression that the music and choreography were beyond the skill of her technique and the depth of her musical sensibilities.

    What a joy when (in my opinion) she finally came fully to grips with her program, in the very last performance of the season.

    In comparison, I thought both Mirai (youthful, flirty) and Yu-na (rather generic) took on less of a musical challenge for the Olympic season.

    And just so I can keep my record intact, of mentioning Michelle in every post on this thread , I felt the same way with Michelle's "Song of the Black Swan." I thought at the beginning of the season that Lori Nichol had given her music and choreography that was beyond her depth. And I kept on feeling that way all the way through U.S. nationals and up until Worlds.

    Then suddenly, in the Worlds qualifying round she siezed that doggone bird by the throat and wrung its flippin' neck!

    By the way, the Rachmaninov "Bells" was supposed to be Michelle's 2006 Olympic LP (also overseen by Tarrasova). We will never know what Michelle might have done with it. (I hope she would have gone with the piano version instead of full orchestra.)
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-28-2010 at 09:11 PM.

  9. #1254
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    Quote Originally Posted by yunasashafan View Post
    She definitely has. She's still not at the level Yuna is, but I believe we'll see a much improved Mao next season. I think she set a challenge to herself with the dark music and the 3As and did not want to back down (some might see this as stubborness, but whatever.. she succeeded). I don't think her interpretation of Bells is as good as what someone like Yuna would be able to do, but she's come a long way since last year.

    And one more comment about PCs. I think whether we like to admit or not, reputation does factor into them. Judges see what they want to see, whether they are concious of this bias or not. And it's not only Yuna who might be affected by that. Just look at Mao's PCs from TEB and Cup of Russia .. I think anytime a skater is perceived to be great, they get a boost in their PCs. The boost, however, is no more than a couple of points. And this is not new. Much more atrocious PC inflation/undermarking happened under 6.0 to much bigger effect. At least in COP, the placement is usually right.

    OK, now I am really out before I get sucked in
    I have a question to you. why do you compare Mao to Yuna?
    Their programs are completely different and their skating style also.
    So I think compare someone with someone else is nonsense even PCS part.

  10. #1255
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I wonder about Tara's "youthful" performance in Nagano - which didn't seem to hurt her
    Tara gave a great performance, and she deserved... she deser... she... (no, no, I can;t say it! )

    But on the issue of musical maturity, Tara "interpreted" the sound track from a couple of teen chick flicks. Her choreographer, Sandra Bezik, begged her to consider nore serious music, but in the end decided that if this is what floats Tara's boat, better to go with that than to push her into something too big for her.

    Michelle, on the other hand, took on the challenge of the William Alwyn harp and strings concerto. Alwyn, not widely known, was nevertheless a modern classical composer of unexpected subtlety. This was his finest work (and the music that Lori Nichol wanted to hear playing when she marched past Saint Peter through the Pearly Gates. )

  11. #1256
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    Jeez, chill out. You're calling the wrong person hypocritical. Mathman was only saying that he believes despite technical mistakes, a skater CAN do better in the Program Components than a clean skater (e.g. Mao vs. Mirai at the Olympics--Mirai is a bit too young to be the best Carmen.)

    However, he is saying that YuNa did not perform her best at this World's, and that the PCS should have reflected that (more?) It's his opinion, but he's not being inconsistent.

    Get a grip on your defensive impulses and try to understand what people are saying...
    Jeez, you should also chil out. Did I ever accuse Mathman of being hypocritical? I only stated that there are some posters who are hypocritical.

  12. #1257
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    I feel that every ladies thread eventually evolves into a MK thread. Not that it's bad though.

  13. #1258
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayayukiituka View Post
    I have a question to you. why do you compare Mao to Yuna?
    Their programs are completely different and their skating style also.
    So I think compare someone with someone else is nonsense even PCS part.
    I am comparing Yuna's ability to interpret music to Mao's, not their programs. We've seen Yuna interpret different styles of music very successfully. Mao less so. That is partially the basis for evaluating PCs, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I feel that every ladies thread eventually evolves into a MK thread. Not that it's bad though.
    That just means MK is the standard against which everybody is judged

  14. #1259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Tara gave a great performance, and she deserved... she deser... she... (no, no, I can;t say it! )

    But on the issue of musical maturity, Tara "interpreted" the sound track from a couple of teen chick flicks. Her choreographer, Sandra Bezik, begged her to consider nore serious music, but in the end decided that if this is what floats Tara's boat, better to go with that than to push her into something too big for her.

    Michelle, on the other hand, took on the challenge of the William Alwyn harp and strings concerto. Alwyn, not widely known, was nevertheless a modern classical composer of unexpected subtlety. This was his finest work (and the music that Lori Nichol wanted to hear playing when she marched past Saint Peter through the Pearly Gates. )
    Sorry, good post and the first part made

    I agree with most of what you are saying but I suspect it was Mirai's youthful - and as Joesitz previously described - "sassy" performance to 'Carmen" that helped her place fourth in Vancouver. We saw the same effect at Worlds as Mirai's "Pirates" SP, so full of "girlish charm" scored BIG with the judges.

    A skater still has to deliver the goods which Mirai did not do in her LP at Worlds.
    But Yuna skating with wonderful lightness, or Mao skating darkly can work and it depends ultimately on the way the program is skated. I believe the same could be said of younger skaters like Tara or Mirai.

    Great skating and performing does not necessarily depend on age or even maturity. In the long run it helps and will typically win but we do see almost every season examples of younger skaters setting the rink on fire on a given night.

    For the record - if I was judging back in '98 my vote would have gone to Michelle.
    Last edited by janetfan; 03-28-2010 at 09:46 PM.

  15. #1260
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Mathman: I am curious about your inclusion of the word"youthful" in the following statement:

    "Mao Asada scored higher in program components than the youthful Mirai Nagasu at the Olympics, despite some technical mistakes, because she skated better, with respect to the criteria for the components."

    I believe I understand what you are saying - and I agree with it. But why did you use "youthful" in making this point? I think it may have been confusing.


    Your follow up statement is something most posters agree with - that reputation scoring is wrong and skaters should get marked for how they skate at the event, and not on what they have done in the past.

    ETA: I posted this right after your post above - I see your explantion.....

    I wonder about Tara's "youthful" performance in Nagano - which didn't seem to hurt her
    I actually feel that Mirai's performance looks a bit less mature than Tara's performance. Because while Mirai's Carmen is very cute and shows off how charming she is, it also shows of her immaturity as well. She's essentially taking an iconic character like Carmen, and making her into a peppy happy person going to a ball! As many said: KinderCarmen.

    In contrast, Tara choose a pretty piece of music, and she skated to it in a pretty way. The thing about Tara is I actually feel she was underrated artistically. She wasn't as good as Michelle's but she was starting to get better and better there. Tara did feel the music and the nuances of the music. And I think could have in time become quite good artistically. And her performance had a lot of excitement and risk.
    Last edited by bekalc; 03-28-2010 at 09:55 PM.

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