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Thread: Ladies - LP

  1. #1471
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    Mrs. P
    Anyway, I thought Laura over at the Required Elements blog did a good explanation on why Yu-na might have been slightly overmarked in PCS (also some other fun analysis of Worlds as well.) This is pretty much my take as well. I think Yu-na probably still won PCS, but only by a point or point and a half at best. (That would have had Mao win the FS overall).
    This is good analysis and it's really nice to Yuna, but I can't agree with author's opinion that Interpretation of Yuna was overscored. I'm not sure if she watched Yuna's performance again after the actual competition. Yuna really didn't give up. It's true, that she wasn't skating for some moments, but she couldn't continue her program right after the fall, because there were no elements at that time and she had to wait for music to catch with it again.

    bekalc
    Besides what jaylee said, I would like to comment on this:
    It isn't ridiculous to think that P/E could perhaps reward who actually skated well. Did the person perform well to the crowd (its difficult to do this and execute the elements). Did the person execute well, skate clean. These things should be rewarded too, and not just P/E because they actually reflect the actual performance. I'm not saying someone going out there executing a great skate with hard choregraphy and a good performance, shouldn't get higher P/E marks than someone else but still.
    If I understand you, what you are trying to say is that someone with clean performance should receive some additional points (or rather one part of PCS should be a special indicator that indicates how clean the performance is). Well, I think that this is redundant and then what would happen is that, yes, Mao would win the FS in that case, but, for example, in case of Yuna's performance at the Olympics she would get even more scores and that's while a lot of people are already saying that she was overscored. I'm not sure that this would work well.
    Difficult entrances/transitions into jumps are part of choregraphy, arent they, and they are rewarded in GOEs.
    But the skater also should be rewarded for this, as he is executing those elements. If no, then they should receive the same GOEs all the time regardless of how well the elements were executed (as they are always part of choreography).

    Brezina may not have had the complicated transitions Chan, or the quads Joubert had. But he performed his program better and there' a reason the crowd booed his marks. Its not like Chan or Joubert actually executed their difficulty well. He didn't really deserve the higher PCS, but somewhere in there, parts of the PCS could have maybe reflected that. Its really just a thought.

    Same with Adam Rippon vs Abbott. I felt Adam deserved to score higher in the free by a bit more. Jeremy is a great skater and his his choregraphy/transitions etc are harder. But Jeremy fell twice, and as far as I'm concerned the marks should have reflected that more.
    Sadly, I didn't watch those performances more than once, but I remember that I thought that they really deserved better scores.... But I'm not sure if that shows flaws in the system or just that judges make errors because of personal preferences and so.
    Last edited by Daniel5555; 04-01-2010 at 03:53 PM.

  2. #1472
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    I think the whole mark for 'Interpretation' should be judged based on the whole program. Yes there is no doubt Kim interpretation is brillent, but also as much as thre are great moment, she also has break in her interpretation and sloppy performance and that should be taken into account too.

    And someone suggest it that, Excercution mark should be taken out of the PCS component. I think that make sense because that is what the GOE mark are for. You got extra bonus for exceruting your element great already. It's just a repitition.

    Mao should have received higher points for these two categories, and Kim should have won on the other three categories. And they PCS should have been a little close or almost the same.

  3. #1473
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    And someone suggest it that, Excercution mark should be taken out of the PCS component. I think that make sense because that is what the GOE mark are for. You got extra bonus for exceruting your element great already. It's just a repitition.
    I really have to disagree. One mistake may not affect the flow of a program. But if you have someone who has turned in MULTIPLE errors, it really affects the program overall. And that counts for Sasha's two falls at the Olympics too. This especially goes for Kostner at 2008 worlds. Every little mistake Kostner made on a jump, in and of itself wouldn't have been that big of deal. But the lot of the big mistakes alltogether made the program quite awful. The marks should take that into account.

    The reason we need a P/E is because we need something that takes into account the whole execution of the program.

    And as for Mao's mistake at worlds vs Yu-na's. From what I understand it was people who there who said Yu-na gave up on the program. And Hersh in his article said Yu-na's whole program before the fall didn't have the spark it had at the Olympics.

  4. #1474
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I really have to disagree. One mistake may not affect the flow of a program. But if you have someone who has turned in MULTIPLE errors, it really affects the program overall. And that counts for Sasha's two falls at the Olympics too. This especially goes for Kostner at 2008 worlds. Every little mistake Kostner made on a jump, in and of itself wouldn't have been that big of deal. But the lot of the big mistakes alltogether made the program quite awful. The marks should take that into account.

    The reason we need a P/E is because we need something that takes into account the whole execution of the program.

    And as for Mao's mistake at worlds vs Yu-na's. From what I understand it was people who there who said Yu-na gave up on the program. And Hersh in his article said Yu-na's whole program before the fall didn't have the spark it had at the Olympics.
    As I've said before, Yuna is not competing against her previous performance at the Olympics. She's competing against the field of ladies in this particular competition. Her interpretation of the music, as well as her skating skills which included jumps, speed, flow etc., were significantly better than anyone else. Why don't you review the whole competition again? Seriously, the other ladies looked like amateurs next to Yuna--so hesitant and scared. It's obvious why the judges gave her the marks they did. It would be true that if all things were equal, that Yuna's mistake should have brought her down to second. But all the ladies certainly did not have equal skills nor did they skate equally.
    Last edited by Figure88; 04-01-2010 at 06:43 PM.

  5. #1475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I love this picture, and I see what you mean. Mao does have that timeless look to her features. I'm not so familiar with Mai's face, but I'll take your word for it.

    One of the nice things I noticed in the montage of photos someone else supplied was that Mao had a different expression in every picture. That's very uncommon: most people look pretty much the same in every photo. Mao so effectively conveys everything she thinks and feels.

    And then Mathman went and mentioned one of my favorite programs ever, Michelle's Song of the Black Swan, especially in the Worlds Qualifying. The combination of her assured technique and musicality, the intricate yet silken choreography, and the gorgeous music makes me return to that video again and again. I just recently discovered the origin of the first section of music in that program: it turns out to be by Villa-Lobos, and it's actually called "The Song of the Black Swan.
    It is an obscure piece from a not so obscure composer villa lobos, I guess only Loir is capable of finding gems among obscure pieces
    " Most of the rest of the music comes from a Dvorak trio known as the Dumky Trio, so I had assumed that the beginning was by Dvorak also. Gee, it only took me nine years to figure things out....but that is one glorious skating program, and there aren't many that can equal it in my estimation.
    Dvorak's dumky is a much more well known piece. I believe it is a Czech dance. Again kudos to Lori who combined 2 different pieces of music seamlessly. By the way, I still haven't figure out how Michelle made it work so well at worlds wearing a rhaspberry color costume (of that was not the costume of her choice, but the airline lost her luggage).

    I think DOD is another program that showcase Lori's brilliance. She combinef 2 pieces of music seamlessly also. In this case the adagio of 4 godesses from Gliere's Red Poppy, and Massenet's Herodiade
    Last edited by rtureck; 04-01-2010 at 06:57 PM.

  6. #1476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    As I've said before, Yuna is not competing against her previous performance at the Olympics. She's competing against the field of ladies in this particular competition. Her interpretation of the music, as well as her skating skills which included jumps, speed, flow etc., were significantly better than anyone else. Why don't you review the whole competition again? Seriously, the other ladies looked like amateurs next to Yuna--so hesitant and scared. It's obvious why the judges gave her the marks they did. It would be true that if all things were equal, that Yuna's mistake should have brought her down to second. But all the ladies certainly did not have equal skills nor did they skate equally.
    That's only your opinion. Others who have watched it did not feel this way. I certainly didn't think all the other ladies looked hesitant and scared. I think your statements are really condescending to the other skaters.

  7. #1477
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    That's only your opinion. Others who have watched it did not feel this way. I certainly didn't think all the other ladies looked hesitant and scared. I think your statements are really condescending to the other skaters.
    Not a surprising response since most of your posts are about defending Mao.

  8. #1478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    Not a surprising response since most of your posts are about defending Mao.
    So what? I like both girls, and I even prefer Yu-na. But on this occassion I felt Yu-na out skated Mao. I disagree that Mao looked hesitant or scared at that performance. Asada gave a lovely performance.

  9. #1479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    As I've said before, Yuna is not competing against her previous performance at the Olympics. She's competing against the field of ladies in this particular competition. Her interpretation of the music, as well as her skating skills which included jumps, speed, flow etc., were significantly better than anyone else. Why don't you review the whole competition again? Seriously, the other ladies looked like amateurs next to Yuna--so hesitant and scared. It's obvious why the judges gave her the marks they did. It would be true that if all things were equal, that Yuna's mistake should have brought her down to second. But all the ladies certainly did not have equal skills nor did they skate equally.
    I agree with this...but only to a point.
    I just watched Mao and Yuna's program back to back. I found that rewatching the programs, I found them to be about even. Mao's program still fails to move me, but it was a clear improvement from Vancouver, where she got a higher PCS?! And Yuna's program, as someone said earlier, did not have the same spark.

    I see it like this: If on her best at the Olympics Yu-na can get 71, then certainly to go down to 65-67 here (she was score 65.) Likewise I believe Mao rose to the occasion and probably deserves a point or two better than Vancouver so that would put her (in my ranking) at 68 (instead of 62.)

    One person I think that should had better PCS scores is Akiko Suzuki. 52?! Really? Skating in the first group really hurt her. She should have been in the low 60's range with Carolina "Thank God I
    I didn't bomb today" Kostner and Laura "I can medal with three triples!" Lepisto.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 04-01-2010 at 07:08 PM.

  10. #1480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel5555

    By the way, after reading posts like this, I actually got a desire to actually compare Michelle and Yuna in an extensive analysis, just in order to stop this madness. But to do this, I have to find enough courage, which I don't have right now.
    Daniel, why compare? As a YuNa fan you will fulfill your job description to make YuNa look much better at the conclusion of your so call analysis.

  11. #1481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post

    I see it like this: If on her best at the Olympics Yu-na can get 71, then certainly to go down to 65-67 here (she was score 65.) Likewise I believe Mao rose to the occasion and probably deserves a point or two better than Vancouver so that would put her (in my ranking) at 68 (instead of 62.)
    The Vancouver Olympics are a different competiiton from Worlds with a different panel of judges, so of course, you will have differences in results. But Mao has received low PCS for her FS this season (at 4cc), so it wasn't her lower PCS in this particular competition is unprecedented. Plus, all the other skater received lower PCS and she is being marked relative to other skaters. I think it has to do with her music choice and choreography this season. She's essentially a light and lyrical skater so I think the program was a bad choice for her.
    Last edited by Figure88; 04-01-2010 at 07:37 PM.

  12. #1482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    Not a surprising response since most of your posts are about defending Mao.
    Actually, I felt the need to reply on behalf of the other ladies competing there. The others may not have the skills or presence as Yuna but I don't think they were scared or hesitant. People talk about Yuna fighting through the program but so did Mirai in her LP. She was fighting for everything there and she gave a great SP performance. Akiko also gave a good performance with a lot of joy.

  13. #1483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    Not a surprising response since most of your posts are about defending Mao.
    I don't understand why you get so defensive whenever anyone says anything postive about Mao. Just because a poster says they enjoyed Mao's program more than Yuna's at Worlds, that does not diminish or demean Yuna at all. It just means at this event, they liked Mao as much as, or better than Yuna. There's nothing wrong with that. It is possible to be a fan of both skaters, and to think one skated better than the other at an event. And to say that the other skaters "looked like amateurs--so hesitant and scared", I mean really, is that necessary?

  14. #1484
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    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    I don't understand why you get so defensive whenever anyone says anything postive about Mao. Just because a poster says they enjoyed Mao's program more than Yuna's at Worlds, that does not diminish or demean Yuna at all. It just means at this event, they liked Mao as much as, or better than Yuna. There's nothing wrong with that. It is possible to be a fan of both skaters, and to think one skated better than the other at an event. And to say that the other skaters "looked like amateurs--so hesitant and scared", I mean really, is that necessary?
    First, my response wasn't to anyone "saying positive things about Mao". My post was about the scores at ladies event. You're intentionally misrepresenting the content of the posts and the topic that is being discussed.

    Secondly, is that comment even insulting? It's my opinion and an honest impression I got from the skaters. Also, I didn't intend it to specifically target to Mao or any specific skater---it was an impression I had of the skaters in general at the ladies event.

    I've seen you say much more rude things before. So isn't it a little hypocritical to say the least, to be criticizing anyone about the tone of their posts?
    Last edited by Figure88; 04-01-2010 at 08:53 PM.

  15. #1485
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    bekalc

    The reason we need a P/E is because we need something that takes into account the whole execution of the program.
    I'm sorry, but maybe you misunderstand this mark?
    This is how ISU explains it:

    Performance/Execution
    Performance: is the involvement of the Skater/Pair physically, emotionally and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography.
    Execution: is the quality of movement and precision in delivery.
    In evaluating the Performance/Execution, the following must be considered:
    – Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement
    – Carriage
    – Style and individuality/personality
    – Clarity of movement
    – Variety and contrast
    – Projection
    Obviously, this is not a mark for the whole performance, it's a total score which marks it.

    miki88

    bekalc
    I certainly didn't think all the other ladies looked hesitant and scared.
    I disagree that Mao looked hesitant or scared at that performance.
    I agree with you here. I think no one looked scared or hesitant including Yuna.

    I just watched Mao and Yuna's program back to back. I found that rewatching the programs, I found them to be about even. Mao's program still fails to move me, but it was a clear improvement from Vancouver, where she got a higher PCS?! And Yuna's program, as someone said earlier, did not have the same spark.
    You found them about even, because they are about even, and the points reflect that
    What I did right now is watching again Mao's program at Worlds and then at Olympics. Just my opinion, I think she was better artistically there than at Worlds. You just have to see her face near the end of the program, she was acting her role perfectly. But it's hard to judge Mao... This program is all about little details.

    rtureck
    Daniel, why compare? As a YuNa fan you will fulfill your job description to make YuNa look much better at the conclusion of your so call analysis.
    Don't worry, I don't take this lightheartedly. Unlike some other people, I try not to hurt others (but I seem to never succeed), so if I would write something, I would write it in not a serious way. Then how you can know, maybe it's Michelle who would be clear winner. I'm a fan of Yuna, but that doesn't mean that I think that she has to win everything no matter what. Then most likely I won't write a thing, because I really hate comparisons like those (and if I write I will show it to someone else before to know exactly how much it sucks).

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