IJS Level Clarifications

Hello everyone! I am new to the IJS system - or at least skating under it. I was wondering what level the following spin would be considered (assuming all the positions are held correctly and appropriately).

Flying camel - back sit - back sit variation - back upright - edge change.

I'm confused as to whether it would be a level 2 or a level 3. Also, when performing 'difficult variations' (i.e. cannonball, twist, etc.) do you need to obtain the basic simple position before performing the variation?

Lastly, when considering spins in the other direction - would the technical panel give you credit (or a level) for a basic upright spin in the other direction (assuming it was part of a combination spin)?

Any feedback / suggestions would be appreciated! Happy Worlds Week.

turino said:

Hello everyone! I am new to the IJS system - or at least skating under it. I was wondering what level the following spin would be considered (assuming all the positions are held correctly and appropriately).

Flying camel - back sit - back sit variation - back upright - edge change.

I'm confused as to whether it would be a level 2 or a level 3. Also, when performing 'difficult variations' (i.e. cannonball, twist, etc.) do you need to obtain the basic simple position before performing the variation?

Lastly, when considering spins in the other direction - would the technical panel give you credit (or a level) for a basic upright spin in the other direction (assuming it was part of a combination spin)?

Any feedback / suggestions would be appreciated! Happy Worlds Week.

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I'm no expert, but I do believe what you described would be a Flying Combination Spin, Level 3.

You would get the feature for the variation, assuming you hold it long enough for your appropriate level, a feauture for an edge change, assuming it is held 3 revs, and the feature for attaining all 3 basic positions on one foot.

To your other questions: no and yes.

Your flying camel/back sit/back sit variation/backup right /change of edge - would be a CoSp3 if you were using the flying entry as a bullet. However, remember that in order to get the flying entry bullet, a skater must establish the basic back camel position for at least two rotations on the backward outside edge in order to have the flying entry count. Many skaters think they are doing the flying entry and end up rotating on a backward inside edge, which cancels out the flying bullet. By increasing the number of rotations in the back sit variation to at least 8 - you could ramp this spin up to a CoSp4. Or, you could add the backward pancake (or cannonball) and hold it for at least 4 rotations (minimum is supposed to be 3 but judges/callers can't count).

The bullet for attaining all three basic positions does not apply in this case, as all three positions must be reached on EACH FOOT. So CCoSp could get the 3 position bullet but not a CoSp. At least in the ISU CoP system...

If you were doing a change foot combination spin, then doing an upright spin on your reverse foot (ie left forward outside spin) DOES count as a bullet. However, the spin must be held for a minimum of rotations, depending upon your level - usuallly 5 rotations - in order for that spin to count as a feature, and only on a change foot combination spin CCoSp----not a one foot combination spin, which has no change of foot.

redhotcoach said:

... hold it for at least 4 rotations (minimum is supposed to be 3 but judges/callers can't count).

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Actually I have found it is the skaters that can't count not the callers. Most skaters start to change to their next position too soon. The rotations must be fully completed in position before changing to the next position. We have shown this to a number of skaters via slow mo video who were completely convinced that they were doing it right. So definitely add an extra count to each of the minimums.

It seems that no one is able to count these days! I always tell my skaters to add at least one rotation to each position in order to assure that it counts as a feature. I have been told by more than just one technical caller (and they are the ones who 'call' or identify the feature for the judges to mark) ...that they don't begin counting rotations until the skater has achieved the basic position ie actually rotating in the camel or sit position, or achieved the bullet variation ie broken leg or change of edge position...which adds at least one rotation in the mind of the skater or coach. In fact, one caller told me that he doesn't start counting rotations until the skater has done 1.5 rotations in the position!!!!!! You can bet when my skaters see that caller on the judges stand - they knowto make sure they hold hold hold those rotations.


Of course, there are always callers who will not be so strictk, so skaters (and parents) who get the high levels for poor spins at one competition, are then blaming the coach at the next competition when it is only a level 1 spin--------or spiral sequence.

When in doubt - hold it out!!!

Actually, the level feature for all 3 positions on one foot DOES apply in a combination spin with no change of foot (either CoSp or FCoSp) if you do camel, sit and upright positions for at least 2 revolutions each. You only need 2 revs in each position and/or difficult variation for it to count, but in order for you to get 2 full revs in position, you might need to *feel* like you've done 3 or 4. Note: If the upright spin is the final position in a CoSp or CCoSp, you only need 2 revolutions, but if it's the final position in a FCoSp or FCCoSp, you need 3. Weird, but true.

Of course if you put your other foot down and go into an opposite direction spin to get another feature, you would need to do all 3 positions on that foot, too, or lose your all-three-positions feature. It would also change your spin from a (F)CoSp to a (F)CCoSp. But yes, it will count as a level-raising feature on any combination spin if you do an upright spin in the opposite direction immediately following the first one. That means you must go from forward spin to forward spin or backspin to backspin, since the free foot on the CCW spin must step down and immediately go onto the entrance edge for the CW spin, with no other step down or edge change in-between.

If you start your flying combination spin from a flying camel, the only way I know of to get a difficult entry feature for the flying entry is to go into it from stars/toe arabian. Otherwise, the fly is not a level-raising feature and you get the same base points as a CoSp. The rule about pre-rotation on the ice only applies to Junior and Senior level skaters.

redhotcoach said:

It seems that no one is able to count these days! I always tell my skaters to add at least one rotation to each position in order to assure that it counts as a feature. I have been told by more than just one technical caller (and they are the ones who 'call' or identify the feature for the judges to mark) ...that they don't begin counting rotations until the skater has achieved the basic position ie actually rotating in the camel or sit position, or achieved the bullet variation ie broken leg or change of edge position...which adds at least one rotation in the mind of the skater or coach. In fact, one caller told me that he doesn't start counting rotations until the skater has done 1.5 rotations in the position!!!!!! You can bet when my skaters see that caller on the judges stand - they knowto make sure they hold hold hold those rotations.


Of course, there are always callers who will not be so strictk, so skaters (and parents) who get the high levels for poor spins at one competition, are then blaming the coach at the next competition when it is only a level 1 spin--------or spiral sequence.

When in doubt - hold it out!!!

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Yes I can fully sympathize, we had one tech caller who would count a sit spin as no element if the skater came up slightly during the change of foot. There were quite a few zeros at some of the area competitions that year!

One other question for you IJS experts. This pertains to jump combinations and sequences. I know the limit in one long program is three jump combos / sequences - one of which can contain three jumps. Is there a limit, however, of those three for how many can be jump sequences?

For example, can you have the following and receive credit?

3lutz - hop - 2axle (seq)
3toe - 2toe - 2 loop (combo or seq?)
3flip - 3toe (combo)

Would the two sequences be allowed or would one not count? I'm asking specifically for my program, which is Adult Jr / Sr in the US Figure Skating realm. Thanks for any info!

I believe it is okay. The rule states 3 combos OR sequences.