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Thread: The British boys think 3A-2T base value is too low

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    The British boys think 3A-2T base value is too low

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwGdc...eature=related

    Her SP at the 2010 Worlds.
    Actress Tara Lipinski, after reviewing the slow mo, also said the 3A was clean.
    The Brits also said the 3A was clean as a whistle. (4:59)

    Time: 4:18
    We're not going to see anymore 3A this afternoon, and the 3A is such a difficult jump. The tariff of that combination (3A-2T) 9.5 is less than somebody doing 3Z-3T. It's completely wrong and that needs to be addressed and I hope they do because there's no point in taking that risk. I'm so glad she did because it's so great to see.

    So add them into the list of people like Tara Lipinski, Johnny Weir, Michael Weiss, Peter Carruthers, Kristi Yamaguchi who all think 3A is not given enough credit.

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    Rinkside
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    In my opinion I honestly don't see why a 3A-2T should be worth more than a 3Z-3T. 2T as a combination jump is just ridiculously easy for any senior skater, so I think the argument should be between a 3A vs 3Z-3T. Some people excel at doing the Axel, some people excel at doing combinations. Looking at it overall it is arguable that we see more 3A in figure skating then triple triple combos (for the men). I don't think ISU wants to give to seperate base values for the men and women.
    Last edited by Willywu; 04-09-2010 at 09:09 PM.

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    I don't want t sound too insistent, but I think it should go up. I do think the base point value of triple-axel is too low when you consider the size of GoEs. I think combos should be valued according to the difficulty of the first jump. More difficult the first jump is, more difficult it is to do the second jump.

    Many skaters have said that the 3-axel/2-toe loop is more difficult than a 3-lutz/3-toe loop (see top). I don't think there is any reason for them to lie, and I believe them.
    Last edited by hurrah; 04-09-2010 at 08:01 PM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willywu View Post
    In my opinion I honestly don't see why a 3A-2T should be worth more than a 3Z-3T. 2T as a combination jump is just ridiculously for any senior skater, so I think the argument should be between a 3A vs 3Z-3T. Some people excel at doing the Axel, some people excel at doing combinations. Looking at it overall it is arguable that we see more 3A in figure skating then triple triple combos (for the men). I don't think ISU wants to give to seperate base values for the men and women.
    That is an interesting point. I just did a quick count.At the recent World Championships, in the men's free skate there were somehting like 19 triple Axels and 18 triple-triple combinations.

    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah
    I think combos should be valued according to the difficulty of the first jump. More difficult the first jump is, more difficult it is to do the second jump.
    That is not so obvious to me. If you do a lousy 3A with a bad landing, you still might be able to muscle up a 2T afterward.

    But if you do a triple Lutz hoping to get off a triple toe afterward, that Lutz had better be perfect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That is not so obvious to me. If you do a lousy 3A with a bad landing, you still might be able to muscle up a 2T afterward.

    But if you do a triple Lutz hoping to get off a triple toe afterward, that Lutz had better be perfect.
    ITA. The most difficult thing about triple triples is that your first jump must be tight and perfect to maintain flow into the second triple. Elite skaters can tack on a 2T to almost anything. I think the argument should be for an increase in BV for the 3A. I'm not into the idea that there should be a risk checkpoint for GOE, since it's meant to reward quality. While Mao's 3As are a great feat, they are not of exceptional quality. Look at Midori Ito and Tonya Harding. If Mao could jump like them, she would be getting +2 maybe even +3 for all of her 3As. I do think Mao's not rewarded enough for her feat, though, but I think the GOE system is fine. I was actually wondering if risk could be factored into PCS, but I'm not sure exactly where.

    On a sidenote, I also advocate for a rule change that increases the value of the second and third jump in a combination. The 3Lo in a 3Lz-3Lo, for example, is obviously more difficult than a single 3Lo. That could increase the BV of a 3A-2T, but would also increase that of the 3Lz-3T (obviously, this alone won't satisfy ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That is not so obvious to me. If you do a lousy 3A with a bad landing, you still might be able to muscle up a 2T afterward.

    But if you do a triple Lutz hoping to get off a triple toe afterward, that Lutz had better be perfect.
    I think it is easier to tag on a 2T after other triple jumps than a triple-axel because it's harder to do a triple-axel than other triple jumps? Maybe?

    Of course, it's far harder to tag on a triple-toe than a double-toe as a second jump. But it would still be easier to do a 3lz-3t than a 3a-3t.

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    Mashimaro on Ice
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    We can only speculate but I think only skaters who actually do these jumps regularly know which jumps are more difficult to do. It's interesting that these comments are coming from mostly male skaters and commetators, and men are the ones who regularly perform 3A combos.

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    I think combo's should be given their own point total instead of being the sum of two jumps. I think sequences should be the sum of the two counting jumps. I think the triple axel should be allowed to be the short program's axel jump. I think two different quads should be allowed to be attempted in the short. I would also love if the short required skaters to do an axel, an edge jump and a toe jump. With the added rule that double's don't count as said type jump unless they are the first or only jump.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah
    I think it is easier to tag on a 2T after other triple jumps than a triple-axel because it's harder to do a triple-axel than other triple jumps? Maybe?
    I think the point is that it is harder to do any jump (a triple toe, for instance) directly out of the landing of another jump than to do it in isolation.

    If a triple toe by itself is worth 4.0, then maybe a triple toe following immediately from another triple jump ought to be worth 5.0 points.

    I don't think it would be feasible to scale it more than that (say, 5.4 following a triple Axel, 5.3 following a triple Lutz. 5.2 following a triple flip, 5.2 following a triple loop, 5.1 following a triple Salchow ad 5.0 in a triple toe-triple toe combination -- that would be too nit-picky, im my opinion.

    Any way you do it, it would be hard to get the value of a 3A+2T up to the value of a 3Lz+3T. Even if we raise the value of the 3A to 8.0 and raise the value of a 2T following a triple jump to 2.0, that still isn't as much as 6.0 for a triple Lutz + 5.0 for a triple toe following a triple jump.
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-09-2010 at 10:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tarotx View Post
    I would also love if the short required skaters to do an axel, an edge jump and a toe jump.
    That's interesting. Why? Edge jumps are worth significantly less (3S, 3Lo, 2A). A 2A is already an edge jump, so skaters are already required to use one, and I don't see elite skaters welcoming this rule, unless they can do a 3Lo combination, which no one successfully did last season and is very prone to UR. Joannie's SP layout, for example, is 3Lz-2T, 3F and 2A (this is also Mirai's). Yu-na's is 3Lz-3T, 3F and 2A. Caro K (in 2007, for example) had 3F-3T, 3Lz and 2A. Most skaters use 3Lz and 3F as their main money jumps and tack on a toe loop. Your suggested change would be too great of a restriction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Any way you do it, it would be hard to get the value of a 3A+2T up to the value of a 3Lz+3T. Even if we raise the value of the 3A to 8.0 and raise the value of a 2T following a triple jump to 2.0, that still isn't as much as 6.0 for a triple Lutz + 5.0 for a triple toe following a triple jump.
    9.0 for 3A, you mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
    Most skaters use 3Lz and 3F as their main money jumps and tack on a toe loop. Your suggested change would be too great of a restriction.
    How would it be more of a restriction to expect them to do 3Lz and 3Lo instead of 3Lz and 3F? If everybody does 3Lz, 3F and 2T or 3T, that's a lot of jumps of a similar kind, and does not show a full range of jumping skills.

    What would be wrong with requiring 3Lz OR 3F, 3Lo OR 3S, one of them in combination with 3T or 2T, together with an Axel jump?

    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
    9.0 for 3A, you mean?
    Too me, that seems too high. A quad toe is only worth 9.2. But I suppose we could put up everything and just have higher scores all the way around.

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    In the end, though, when does it stop being "I want these difficult skills to be worth more" and morph into "I want the skills that my favourites do be the ones rewarded the most?" - re the 3A and the quad (at least with the quad, there's more of a leg to stand on).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    How would it be more of a restriction to expect them to do 3Lz and 3Lo instead of 3Lz and 3F? If everybody does 3Lz, 3F and 2T or 3T, that's a lot of jumps of a similar kind, and does not show a full range of jumping skills.

    What would be wrong with requiring 3Lz OR 3F, 3Lo OR 3S, one of them in combination with 3T or 2T, together with an Axel jump?
    There's nothing wrong with it, but it does restrict and I mean this in terms of BV. A 3F or a 3Lz is worth much more than 3Lo or a 3S. The difference is even greater since the BV for 3Lz has been increased to 6.60. In saying this, I'm assuming the skater in question can't do a 3Lo combination, which would allow for the maximum SP score (without a 3A or quad) with 3Lz+3Lo, 3F and 2A. Also add into this the fact that it's more difficult to get high GOE on a 3Lo (the highest value edge jump) because they rarely get quite as much ice coverage and height as toe jumps (a result of toe pick technique in general), the score difference could be significant.
    Last edited by dlgpffps; 04-09-2010 at 11:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Too me, that seems too high. A quad toe is only worth 9.2. But I suppose we could put up everything and just have higher scores all the way around.
    I think quads definitely need to have higher base value. I think when the base values were set, the impact of GoE was not really considered. But GoEs makes it necessary to raise the base value of harder jumps. Otherwise, skaters will simply stop attempting harder jumps because it's simply not worth the risk.

    And with the short program, they should just abolish any maximum requirements altogether. If the SP is a technical program, I can see the rationale for having minimum requirements, but see no reason to stop skaters from attempting their technically-best performance. Skaters should be allowed to attempt as many rotations as they want.

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