View Poll Results: Who should have taken the bronze medal?

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  • Laura Lepisto?

    58 21.32%
  • Carolina Kostner?

    36 13.24%
  • Cynthia Phaneuf?

    53 19.49%
  • Miki Ando?

    107 39.34%
  • Other

    18 6.62%
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Thread: Who should have taken the bronze on the ladies event?

  1. #61
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Sorry, I think you are seriously misinformed. In the Ladies' skating, jumps account for about 70~75% of total TES in the Free Skate, only about 30% come from the non-jump elements. I think your claim stems for your poor understanding of how the system actually works, which causes the misgivings on your part. Like I recommneded you earlier, please take a sheet paper, mark down the elements and apply the rules. Do this exercise for once during a live competition, I guarantee you will gain some new perspective and appreciation of how the system actually work and possibly, a little happier since you will probably enjoy watching the skating a little more as opposed to being frustrated with something that you don't understand.
    Oh I'm starting to understand this is the system. Wally. And I'm also starting to understand that I hate the system. And that jumps need to be rewarded more.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Oh I'm starting to understand this is the system. Wally. And I'm also starting to understand that I hate the system. And that jumps need to be rewarded more.
    But their importance has already been raised compared to the 6.0 system, just how high do you think they should go?

  3. #63
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    Did anyone take a look at the crazy GOE that Yu-na got for her freeskate?

    +2 for the Triple Flip (yeah it clean but not that amazing)
    +3 for her level 4 spiral sequence (come on. Not even Sasha or Caroline Zhang gets that).
    +.50 on the straight line step (it's only +.50 but I would not have given it a + at all. One judge gave her a +3 on it! Obviously a korean judge.)

    If the GOE was not so inflated yu-na would not have won the freeskate, something she certainly did not deserve to do with that poor performance.

    Another point:
    That Lepisto won the bronze medal at worlds with only 3 triples should be a huge vote of confidence for the Alissas and Sashas of the world and should goad them into coming back next season!
    The GOE on steps was 0.9.
    The GOEs may have been somewhat inflated, but it's PCS (esp PE and IN) that seemed really problematic.
    I do not buy any conspiracy theory (i.e., deliberate malice), but there seems something not working properly in the system in the judgement of PCS. It would be great if we could read an interview with a Worlds judge to get insights.

  4. #64
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    But their importance has already been raised compared to the 6.0 system, just how high do you think they should go?
    Are you seriously trying to argue that jumps were less important in 6.0. That's just plainly ridiculous. The problem is that the base values for different jumps in this system, does not adequately reflect the difficulty of some jumps in relation to other jumps. This is especially the case for combinations, which is judged ridiculously.

    For example Brian Joubert can do a 4toe/3toe. But he has announced that he's never going to do a 4toe/3toe in the long program again. Because he'll get the same base value doing what (normally for him is an easy 3/3.). Laura's 2sal/2toe/ 2loop was worth more than a 3toe. That's just ridiculous. And there's a reason we see less and less guys attempting 3axel/3toe. Why the heck should they go for a more difficult combination when they can go for an easier combination and get the same base value. But yes, Wally jumps are SOOO rewarded under IJS.

    What I would like to see is a bigger point difference between the double axel and the 3toe to start with. Doing something like this
    3toe-5 points
    3sal-5.5 points
    3loop- 6 points
    (Even Sonia B sent a letter arguing that perhaps the 3flip and 3lutz should be worth a bit more because so many have a harder time developing these jumps)
    3flip- 7 points
    3lutz-7.5 points
    3axel-10 points
    Quad toe-12 points

    I'd also like to see GOE factored towards difficulty. Have GOE be based on difficulty. So someone with double axels can't be making to much points over those doing 3axels.

    Also perhaps getting rid of the transition mark. Because its already rewarded in GOE, and in choregraphy.

    They could also offer bonus points for combinations based on difficulty. But just allowing GOE be factored into base value percentages, would already start the plan towards rewarding harder combinations.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Are you seriously trying to argue that jumps were less important in 6.0. That's just plainly ridiculous. The problem is that the base values for different jumps in this system, does not adequately reflect the difficulty of some jumps in relation to other jumps. This is especially the case for combinations, which is judged ridiculously.
    I already answered this question in details once before so I don't want to repeat myself again. I am not arguing anything, I am simply informing you under the 6.0 system, yes, the jumps worth less than they are under the IJS, in theory. The problem with the 6.0 system was not that non-jump elements were unimportant, they definitely worth something but it was the way that judges had to keep track of every single elements performed which proved to be very difficult to do. As a result, jumps, especially Quads, were given disproportionate amount of weight, more than intented, most of the time. Anyway, if you are interested in a more complete answer, I'll have to refer you to a detailed response I wrote about a month or so ago on Icenetwork.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Are you seriously trying to argue that jumps were less important in 6.0. That's just plainly ridiculous. The problem is that the base values for different jumps in this system, does not adequately reflect the difficulty of some jumps in relation to other jumps. This is especially the case for combinations, which is judged ridiculously.
    If you want a real and recent example, Oda's completely bombed SP would have receive more technical marks under the 6.0 system than the almost completed wasted marks he got under IJS. Out of 6.0, his require elements score would be roughly in the mid 3s. Instead, he got about 15 out of about 50 in TES, which is roughly 30% of the technical marks. He would definitely have been better off under the 6.0 system because that system doesn't proportionally weight the value of jumps. So even if say Joubert landed 3 Quads and 8 clean triples and receive a 6.0 for the Technica Merit, he may still only be 0.1 ahead of say a clean Chan with no Quads at 5.9 That's how frustraing, disporportional and often unfair, the old system can be.

  7. #67
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    If you want a real and recent example, Oda's completely bombed SP would have receive more technical marks under the 6.0 system than the almost completed wasted marks he got under IJS. Out of 6.0, his require elements score would be roughly in the mid 3s. Instead, he got about 15 out of about 50 in TES, which is roughly 30% of the technical marks. He would definitely have been better off under the 6.0 system because that system doesn't proportionally weight the value of jumps. So even if say Joubert landed 3 Quads and 8 clean triples and receive a 6.0 for the Technica Merit, he may still only be 0.1 ahead of say a clean Chan with no Quads at 5.9 That's how frustraing, disporportional and often unfair, the old system can be.
    Under 6.0, Patrick would never get a 5.9 for technical merit without a quad. Back then you had to certain jumps if you even wanted to be considered for the top spots. And as for Oda would have been held up in the short under 6.0. Can I remind you what happened to Chen Lu the reigning World silver medalist when she completely imploded at 1997 worlds? Oda would have been hit hard under 6.0 too.

    Of course under 6.0 big name skaters like a Plushenko or a Kwan always somehow managed 4th at least if they made a mistake in the short.
    Last edited by bekalc; 03-29-2010 at 01:00 AM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Are you seriously trying to argue that jumps were less important in 6.0. That's just plainly ridiculous. The problem is that the base values for different jumps in this system, does not adequately reflect the difficulty of some jumps in relation to other jumps. This is especially the case for combinations, which is judged ridiculously.

    For example Brian Joubert can do a 4toe/3toe. But he has announced that he's never going to do a 4toe/3toe in the long program again. Because he'll get the same base value doing what (normally for him is an easy 3/3.). Laura's 2sal/2toe/ 2loop was worth more than a 3toe. That's just ridiculous. And there's a reason we see less and less guys attempting 3axel/3toe. Why the heck should they go for a more difficult combination when they can go for an easier combination and get the same base value. But yes, Wally jumps are SOOO rewarded under IJS.

    What I would like to see is a bigger point difference between the double axel and the 3toe to start with. Doing something like this
    3toe-5 points
    3sal-5.5 points
    3loop- 6 points
    (Even Sonia B sent a letter arguing that perhaps the 3flip and 3lutz should be worth a bit more because so many have a harder time developing these jumps)
    3flip- 7 points
    3lutz-7.5 points
    3axel-10 points
    Quad toe-12 points

    I'd also like to see GOE factored towards difficulty. Have GOE be based on difficulty. So someone with double axels can't be making to much points over those doing 3axels.

    Also perhaps getting rid of the transition mark. Because its already rewarded in GOE, and in choregraphy.

    They could also offer bonus points for combinations based on difficulty. But just allowing GOE be factored into base value percentages, would already start the plan towards rewarding harder combinations.
    But then 3t-3t would receive just as many points as triple axel!
    Now do you see? The thing is, no matter how you rank and score each jump, there will be no completely objective and fair way to reward each jump according to comparative difficulty. Maybe it was a stupid idea to quantify each trick, but as a sport, there has to be numbers and figures to rank the skaters, and I believe the current COP is just doing that.
    If I expand on your train of logic, I could come up with several contradictory score rankings. For example, which should be worth more? A solo triple lutz or 3t-3t? You could argue either is more difficult than the other.

  9. #69
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I would give Miki the Bronze.

    I really don't understand the huge marks for Lepisto. Aside from excellent posture I really see nothing special about her at all.

  10. #70
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    bekalc, you also have the triple toe worth 1.2 points more than a level four footwork sequence. Do you believe that accurately describes their difficulty?

  11. #71
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    I was at the palavela and I can tell you..laura was not near the bronze medal with that performance..ok she's elegant and everything but a program with 3 triples (two of them being toeloop) cannot win a medal at worlds! I remember when carolina won the silver at goteborg! there she delivered a program with seven triples but with not good landings! and for this result a lot of people complained! now is carolina's 2008 result more undeserved than laura's this year result? as I said laura is elegant and a very talented skater but she was uninspirig saturday..she wasn't fighting no passion..good elements but no passion..why wasn't she dropped down like nagasu? yes, nagasu fell but she fought for her program and she tried for her triples! so if you help one skater you have to help all of them!
    for me the bronze was for miki! she was just great! I've never liked her so much but seeing her live is a different thing! actually I would have had miki over yuna who I've found was a bit overrated expecially if you see mao's score!
    if not miki I would say carolina! she was so touching seeing her skating like that, knowing what she's been through and knowing that the result of this competition may have decided for her future!
    I didn't see phaneouf program but I understand she had a beautiful performance so she also deservedhigher placement than laura!
    and we cannot talk that the result was right because laura had more points in the short beacuse the three skater are in less than two points so if judges were fair it would have been easy to give the bronze to another skater (see miki components)...and carolina was not overscored! the 3toe was not underrotated and she deserved more! even morozov said that!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    Did anyone take a look at the crazy GOE that Yu-na got for her freeskate?

    +2 for the Triple Flip (yeah it clean but not that amazing)
    +3 for her level 4 spiral sequence (come on. Not even Sasha or Caroline Zhang gets that).
    +.50 on the straight line step (it's only +.50 but I would not have given it a + at all. One judge gave her a +3 on it! Obviously a korean judge.)

    If the GOE was not so inflated yu-na would not have won the freeskate, something she certainly did not deserve to do with that poor performance.

    Another point:
    That Lepisto won the bronze medal at worlds with only 3 triples should be a huge vote of confidence for the Alissas and Sashas of the world and should goad them into coming back next season!
    Yeah!! My eyes just poped when the score comes up. Yuna LP is worse than last year world performance and yet able to score 130+.

    The judges are going ridicoulous with the +GOE mark. I think ISU should change the rule from giving out GOE from +3 to -3 to +2 to -2 (with mandatory -3 for a fall jump). Whatsè the point if a tirple toe loop done by Yuna is 7 point ( 4+ 3GOE)and worth more than a 3Lz. Its just a joke. Getting a +2 on a jump is more than enough. Come to think of it, not even many men managed to get +2 GOE as much as Yuna.

    Oh well on the brightside, now that Kim had gotten ladies world title and olympic title, she can move to the men event! Her score is already competitive with most of the top men anyway. =)

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanja90 View Post
    laura was not near the bronze medal with that performance..ok she's elegant and everything but a program with 3 triples (two of them being toeloop) cannot win a medal at worlds!
    Laura did not win the bronze with her freeskate! She won the medal based on sp and fs. Of course a programme with 3 triples can win a medal, everything just depends on how other skaters are doing in sp and fs.
    Last edited by Jaana; 03-29-2010 at 01:17 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderlen3000 View Post
    Yeah!! My eyes just poped when the score comes up. Yuna LP is worse than last year world performance and yet able to score 130+.

    The judges are going ridicoulous with the +GOE mark. I think ISU should change the rule from giving out GOE from +3 to -3 to +2 to -2 (with mandatory -3 for a fall jump). Whatsè the point if a tirple toe loop done by Yuna is 7 point ( 4+ 3GOE)and worth more than a 3Lz. Its just a joke. Getting a +2 on a jump is more than enough. Come to think of it, not even many men managed to get +2 GOE as much as Yuna.

    Oh well on the brightside, now that Kim had gotten ladies world title and olympic title, she can move to the men event! Her score is already competitive with most of the top men anyway. =)
    I wouldn't say that Kim's LP this year is THAT much worse than her LP at worlds last year. Last year she popped the salchow and her last spin did not count. This year, she fell on the salchow and the 2A did not count. The scoring is pretty consistent, if you ask me, at least technically.

    As far as the GOEs are concerned, Yuna this year has more transitions and difficult entrances/exit than last year, so the increase in her GOE is fair in my book.
    Last edited by yunasashafan; 03-29-2010 at 01:25 PM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    Laura did not win the bronze with her freeskate! She won the medal based on sp and fs. Of course a programme with 3 triples can win a medal, everything just depends on how other skaters are doing in sp and fs.
    I've told you! in this case I don't believe in the victory based on the short program! if you see the final result laura miki cinthya and carolina are all in less than two points! If they were fear they would have given the bronze to miki or carolina or cinthya! (in particulare the last one! perfect short, perfect long but the bronze went to a girl who made mistake in the short and in the long!) at least miki and carolina made nearly perfect long programs which deserved a lot more! plus, I've found laura skating uninspiring mechanical! the result wasn't fear..and i'm not the only one who thinks that...in the area where I was everybody couldn't understand laura placement!

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