View Poll Results: Who should have taken the bronze medal?

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  • Laura Lepisto?

    58 21.32%
  • Carolina Kostner?

    36 13.24%
  • Cynthia Phaneuf?

    53 19.49%
  • Miki Ando?

    107 39.34%
  • Other

    18 6.62%
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Thread: Who should have taken the bronze on the ladies event?

  1. #76
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Overall I would have had it as:

    01. Mao Asada (1, 1)
    02. Yu-Na Kim (4, 2)
    03. Miki Ando (11, 3)
    04. Cynthia Phaneuf (9, 4)
    05. Carolina Kostner (8, 5)
    06. Mirai Nagasu (2, 9)
    07. Rachel Flatt (6, 7)
    08. Laura Lepisto (5, 8) - one of the most ridiculous medals ever
    09. Ksenia Makarova (3, 10)
    10. Akiko Suzuki (21, 6)

  2. #77
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    Lepisto, the best CoP skater

    Lepisto's the best CoP player far better than Yuna. She got the highest GoE in worlds and the second highest in olys only to Yuna. She showed the way to rake up GoE points without spectacular jumps. As fans, we can say anything we want. Bitching is always more fun. But if players didn't learn from her, what would you call them?

    Maybe not the best analogy, but to me it's like 3 pointers in basketball. Laura hits 3 boring looking 3 pointers. Another girl hits 4 spectacular dunks, and cries foul.

    "How in the world am I trailing?"
    "Umm... because you're dumb?"
    Last edited by enoh; 03-29-2010 at 06:10 PM.

  3. #78
    Custom Title MikiAndoFan#1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Overall I would have had it as:

    01. Mao Asada (1, 1)
    02. Yu-Na Kim (4, 2)
    03. Miki Ando (11, 3)
    04. Cynthia Phaneuf (9, 4)
    05. Carolina Kostner (8, 5)
    06. Mirai Nagasu (2, 9)
    07. Rachel Flatt (6, 7)
    08. Laura Lepisto (5, 8) - one of the most ridiculous medals ever
    09. Ksenia Makarova (3, 10)
    10. Akiko Suzuki (21, 6)
    My top 10, as well.


  4. #79
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yunasashafan View Post
    I wouldn't say that Kim's LP this year is THAT much worse than her LP at worlds last year. Last year she popped the salchow and her last spin did not count. This year, she fell on the salchow and the 2A did not count. The scoring is pretty consistent, if you ask me, at least technically.

    As far as the GOEs are concerned, Yuna this year has more transitions and difficult entrances/exit than last year, so the increase in her GOE is fair in my book.
    but transistions are supposed to be rewarded in the PCS, not GOE. The judges are using GOE to hold up the favorites. I have to go and check the GOE given to Jeremey's programs. He has the best transitions in the business. I wonder if the GOE reflect that.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    but transistions are supposed to be rewarded in the PCS, not GOE. The judges are using GOE to hold up the favorites. I have to go and check the GOE given to Jeremey's programs. He has the best transitions in the business. I wonder if the GOE reflect that.
    The way I understand it, transitions such as an "isolated" ina bauer or a split jump are part of the PCs whereas transitions into jumps such as Yuna's ina bauer/spread eagle into double axel or the twizzle she does out of her salchow or second lutz count as part of GOE because they add to the difficulty of the jump (much like a series of steps into the jump makes it harder). Besides, Yuna's GOEs have been high for a long time due to the height, speed into and flow out of her jumps. See for yourself, she gained almost 10 points on GOEs in this performance almost three seasons ago:

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf

  6. #81
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enoh View Post
    Lepisto's the best CoP player far better than Yuna. She got the highest GoE in worlds and the second highest in olys only to Yuna. She showed the way to rake up GoE points without spectacular jumps. As fans, we can say anything we want. Bitching is always more fun. But if players didn't learn from her, what would you call them?
    Lepisto's +GOE marks are simply ridiculous. She isn't technically great at anything, I'm sorry to say. The +1.4 GOE she got for her Spiral Sequence is particularly undeserved.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Lepisto's +GOE marks are simply ridiculous. She isn't technically great at anything, I'm sorry to say. The +1.4 GOE she got for her Spiral Sequence is particularly undeserved.
    Suppose the system is wrong, we fans can cry foul forever. It's fun for sure. But what would you suggest to skaters? "Do not give in to the wrong system, just keep getting beaten by Laura?" Or "learn from Laura."

    I enjoyed Laura's performances so much more than any other's. However, when I saw her GoE points after the Olympics, it was "W.T.F" moment to me as well. Then (I think) I realized the little things she does to rake up GoE must have made her performances intriguing as well. That's why I said Lepisto's the best CoP player.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Lepisto's +GOE marks are simply ridiculous. She isn't technically great at anything, I'm sorry to say. The +1.4 GOE she got for her Spiral Sequence is particularly undeserved.
    Sorry the only thing ridiculous here is that you have no clue how the GOE works, that's why you are claiming ridicule in everything you see - because you clearly don't understand how the system works. There are very specific protcol in which the judges follow in determining whether to award positive GOE or not. It works like a checklist. If a skater meets these requirements for each type of element, he/she will and should get positive GOE, whether it's +1, +2, or +3.

    Please consult here for further reading: http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=981

    The distribution of GOE is not based on some subjective standard or personal preference or some unrealistic comparison with skaters who are not even there in the competition (e.g. Sasha Cohen or Caroline Zhang). Frankly, I get it that to many people, the only skaters who are deserving of anything is either: 1) My favorites or 2) Someone I like because it seems to me, every other skater is either thief, robber, overmarked, ugly, the one or undeserving... seriously take your pick already:sheesh: . I have to wonder, why so much negativity? If this is so painful and unjust, why do you keep watching then? I really want to know.

  9. #84
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    GOE is totally subjective. Judges can give like +3 or -3 for something. It is personal opinion. Like all the PCS scores.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    GOE is totally subjective. Judges can give like +3 or -3 for something. It is personal opinion. Like all the PCS scores.
    No it isn't, I already replied to your post from another thread and explained in great details how it works. To be honest, I think the lack of education on how GOE works is to be blamed for all these confusions. If you feel the way you do, I bet there are a lot of people out there thinking the same thing and that's not good at all for this sport...

  11. #86
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Sorry the only thing ridiculous here is that you have no clue how the GOE works, that's why you are claiming ridicule in everything you see - because you clearly don't understand how the system works. There are very specific protcol in which the judges follow in determining whether to award positive GOE or not. It works like a checklist. If a skater meets these requirements for each type of element, he/she will and should get positive GOE, whether it's +1, +2, or +3.
    I know perfectly well how GOE works. I understand CoP better than most any sitting judging, in fact. ASIDE from many aspects of CoP needing to be re-written, which gets into a different argument, let's look at the current rules for +GOE in Spiral Sequences:

    FOR + 1 : 1 or 2 bullets / FOR + 2 : 3 or 4 bullets / FOR + 3 : 5 or 6 bullets

    1. good flow, energy and execution
    2. good speed during sequence
    3. good body line
    4. highlights the character of the program
    5. superior flexibility
    6. creativity and originality

    Are Lepisto's spirals creative? Nope. Is her flexibility superior? Nope. Do her spirals highlight the character of the program? Nope (and hardly anybody's do enchance the program these days, thanks to the rigid requirements for making your Spiral Sequence level 4). Does she have good body line? Nope, not good enough to be considered for a bonus in any case.

    That leaves 2 bullets at most that you could say classify Lepisto's Spirals - the first two. Which means she should get +1 at most for her Spiral. Many judges gave her +2.

    Similarly, look at the bullets for jumps:

    1. unexpected / creative / difficult entry
    2. clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
    3. varied position in the air / delay in rotation
    4. great height and/or distance
    5. superior extension on landing / creative exit
    6. superior flow in and out (and in-between in jump combinations / sequences)

    Many judges gave Lepisto's Triple Toe-Triple Toe a +2. It should not have gotten more than +1. She doesn't have a difficult entry, so bullet #1 is not met. She does not have steps immediately preceding the jump so #2 is not met. She does not have a varied air position, so #3 is not met. She does not have superior extension on the landing or a creative exit, so #5 is not met. At the very most you could say she meets #4 and #6, which is only good enough for a +1 GOE.

    As for a change I'd like to see with the GOE grading (aside from being able to give GOE in increments of .5 and the +GOE values for all technical elements being the same), bullet #1 and #2 for jumps should be combined into the same bullet. And #4 should be split into two separate bullets.

  12. #87
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    bekalc, you also have the triple toe worth 1.2 points more than a level four footwork sequence. Do you believe that accurately describes their difficulty?
    If they are going to raise the value of the triples, I actually wouldn't be against raising the value of level four footwork and level 4 spins as well. My only question about the level four footwork is are the requirements for getting level 4 footwork really clear?
    Doing this wouldn't help Laura so much though because if she got 2 extra points for her level 4 spins (she only had 2 level 4 spins), and one extra for her spiral sequence and 3 extra for her jumps. It wouldn't change the fact that Ando would be getting about 6 extra points for her jumps and about 3 extra points for her other elements.

    And Wrmly in general I'd like to see bonuses added to the difficulty level of combinations.
    Last edited by bekalc; 03-30-2010 at 10:52 AM.

  13. #88
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    I find this thread quite sobering, because it makes me realize how little I understand the CoP. Thanks to all of you who have gone into detail about it! I'll have to spend some time in YouTube University figuring out how this applies to various skaters' performances.

  14. #89
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    Much of this conversation just reaffirms my opinion that the current CoP is still very subjective. When two (or more) people can use the same protocals and come to quite different results, what other conclusion can one have.

    Of course I'm sure some will continue to say "you just don't understand the system". The explanations are very black and white. It's th actual scoring where I see lots of gray areas.

  15. #90
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Blades based on the criteria you posted, you can see how someone like Brezina was actaully rather robbed on GOE for his jumps. He got straight +1s but really if you look at the criterai Michal deserves +2 for all of his jumps.

    The only thing Michal doesn't have when it comes to his jumps is difficult entries, or creative steps/transitions preceding it (1 and 2)

    Other than that he has
    (3) varied positions/delay in rotation. If you look at all of Michal's jumps they are DELAYED.
    (4) Great height and distance- Nobody jumps higher than Michal
    (5)Superior extension/creative exits. (I'm not sure what this means completely but this kid's landings are incredible with great knees and deep edges.
    (6)Super flow (look at this guys landings)

    Seriously seriously the fact that Michal doesn't get accross the board +2 GOEs on his jumps is really ridiculous. If he were to ever start doing more difficult entrances, the guy would warrant plus 3s.

    And that Wally is why GOE is subjective. The fact that Michal meets 3 of those bullet points every time he lands his jumps cleanly isn't really arguable.
    Last edited by bekalc; 03-30-2010 at 11:56 AM.

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