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Thread: Axel in SP

  1. #1
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    Axel in SP

    I think it might be reasonable to change the ladies' short program rules to allow skaters to have the options do a 2A or a 3A, just as in Pairs, 2Tw or 3Tw. It's fair to skaters with higher skill levels.

    Also it is really necessary to do something with the downgrade related rules. For example, Mao did a 3A+2T, and a 2A in her LP during this World, and her 3A got downgraded (why? it looked perfectly fine, yes she pre-rotated the jump, but looking at the landing it appears totally in-line with the her take-off line) , she got more point for the 2A than the 3A+2T, that is just wrong, not good for the sport. And look at how much Dai got for the 4F.

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    I think a 3A should be allowed in the ladies short as the axel jump as well. It would add a little value for the few ladies who can land them. I mean not many of the ladies are doing the triple axel but few are landing a non downgraded triple-triple in the short and it's allowed. I also think that if the double axel wasn't a required jump more ladies would train the triple.

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    Just to play a little devil's advocate to this discussion. What if the midpoint value was also introduced for underrotated jumps and 3A is allowed in ladies SP as the axel required jump? Would we then see a flock of ladies going after and performing under-rotated 3A in the SP? Or would the -GOE's be enough to discourage them from doing that?

    The 3A is much harder for ladies to perform than for men. Therefore I think the 3A should have an increased based value compared to the men.

    Quote Originally Posted by hongligl View Post
    And look at how much Dai got for the 4F.
    Did you mean that was a good thing or bad thing? I couldn't really comprehend lol
    I thought Dai was properly rewarded for his 4F attempt, a downgraded to 3F with minor -GOE. The jump was by no means ready (he's never landed it), he lost a bit of balance in the setup therefore couldn't get the usual height & strength he wanted to complete the rotations.

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    Maybe I should use "how little" instead of "how much" in the case of Dai's 4F. I was not challenging the marks, I have doubt about the reasonableness of the rule. A higher difficulty jump add a lot excitment to a program, and it should be awarded no matter if it was successful or not, it should be a matter how much to be awarded, rather than how to punish the daring effort IMO. What should be punished IMPO is fall. A fall causes more damage to a program than an underrotated jump. If we want more audience to feel satisfied about programs and about themselves, the COP really has a lot to be worked on.

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    I've posted about this before so i'll try to keep it short and sweet!

    The men's SP requirements were not changed to allow a 2A or 3A in the SP until nearly every man was attempting the 3A in their LP. Similarly the Sp requirements were not changed to allow a quad jump, until at least the final flight (and more) were attempting quads in their LP.

    I don't think the ISU is giong to chnage the ladies axel SPrule until there are at least 5 or 6 female skater regularly attempting 3As in their LPs. I also do not think the ISU should change the rules until there is more than one person attempting a particular jump.

    As to the mid-way BV for an under-rotated jump. I agree that something needs to be done about the fact that UR jumps are penalised more than anything else, however, the mid-way point value looks very "slippery slope" to me. Skaters who are starting to rotate harder jumps and manage to stand up on them may be encouraged to stand up on jumps they have never fully rotated in order to get more points. Male skaters going for 3.5 toe-loops or salchows, or given the vast points those who can rotate quad salchows stand a fairly good chance of doing 4 revs on an axel take-off. Do we really want to encourage sloppy attempts at greater rotation? I don't know how to fix the system to make it "work" but the mid-way BV seems like a good fix until you look at what it might encourage.

    Either way - if they do bring in the mid-way BV I think it should specifically NOT apply in the SP. If the SP is supposed to be the "technical" programme with prescribed elements then I think under-rotated jumps should not be tolerated. Have the freedom in the LP but not the SP.

    Ant

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    I think allowing 3A as an axel in ladies SP is just fine.
    It will be so exciting to see KYN do an 3A from an Ina Bauer and get 2point GOE.

    But I'm not buying the so-called intermediate points to URed jumps though.
    A jump is a double jump or a triple jump, not something obscure in between. lol

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    I think allowing 3A as an axel in ladies SP is just fine.
    It will be so exciting to see KYN do an 3A from an Ina Bauer and get 2point GOE.
    What??? Since when has Yuna been able to land a 3A, let alone one from an Ina Bauer?

    Ant

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    What??? Since when has Yuna been able to land a 3A, let alone one from an Ina Bauer?

    Ant
    Her coach think she should do the 3A, and I have no reason to doubt him.
    After all, Orser was the Mr. 3A.
    And if she can do her best 2As from Ina Bauer, why not 3As?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    Her coach think she should do the 3A, and I have no reason to doubt him.
    After all, Orser was the Mr. 3A.
    And if she can do her best 2As from Ina Bauer, why not 3As?
    If it was so easy to add a rotation to the 3A more women would have done so by now.

    Ant

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    If it was so easy to add a rotation to the 3A more women would have done so by now.

    Ant
    Not many women won OGM with 2 clean performances and no women has scored 228 points but KYN.
    Also, she can delay her triple lutz in the air better than many of the men and I don't see why her 3A should be any different if she really puts her mind to it.

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    http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/fla...100329088.html

    Says that Japanese Fed will appeal to ISU for a rule change to allow a choice of 3-axel instead of 2-axel in the SP.

    Yoshioka Director (?) of JSF says that they want to make the rule the same as men's and that 'as long as there is a skater who can do it, the rule should be changed'.... It will prevent a situation such as happened at Russia Cup, where Mao's 2-axel was discounted because her 3-axel was called on under-rotation.

    I do think that as long as men are allowed, it should be allowed for women. If it's not going to be allowed for women, then men should not be allowed to have a choice of 2-axel/3-axel.

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    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Not sure if this is going to happen because there is only one skater now who does that.

    I am kind of surprised to see JSF so assertive. I have never seen them doing any politics like this.

    After all, this is one of the proposals that may or may not be ratified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Not sure if this is going to happen because there is only one skater now who does that.

    I am kind of surprised to see JSF so assertive. I have never seen them doing any politics like this.

    After all, this is one of the proposals that may or may not be ratified.
    Well, there are many skaters who do it. It's just that only one of them happens to be a woman, and she's being punished for being a woman rather than being a man.

    You could argue that the present rule has been gender discriminatory all along. It's just that the discrimination never became an issue before because there wasn't a woman until now whose triple-axel was secure enough for her to find the choice of putting it in the SP remotely feasible.
    Last edited by hurrah; 03-29-2010 at 10:29 AM.

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    quad should be a mandatory jump for men in SP

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    quad should be a mandatory jump for men in SP
    Well, if there ever came along a male skater who could do a quad-axel, the rule should be that he could do a quad-axel rather than a triple-axel or double-axel.

    In fact, I don't understand why they even specify the number of rotation of axel jumps in the first place. It should be whatever number of rotation that the skater wants to attempt.

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