The mule kick | Page 2 | Golden Skate

The mule kick

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
for me rachel has always had the mule kick too- but at worlds it was worse.
i noticed that caroline zhang is halfway (in other words when she bends down-it goes up past her behind)for her first jum sorry--rachels goes up to it--. rachel did it all year -just at worlds and the olympics it got worse.
sasha had mule kick at nationals went-past hip or higher than knee ,
mao used to have it higher than knee - even yu na had it but both mao and yu-na got rid of it by olympics and worlds went down to normal around ankle to no higher than knee
but most of women cleaned up skating technique so it got rid of them.
mirai started to have mule kick -but frank got rid of it.
 

breeze

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
for me rachel has always had the mule kick too- but at worlds it was worse.
i noticed that caroline zhang is halfway (in other words when she bends down-it goes up past her behind)for her first jum sorry--rachels goes up to it--. rachel did it all year -just at worlds and the olympics it got worse.
sasha had mule kick at nationals went-past hip or higher than knee ,
mao used to have it higher than knee - even yu na had it but both mao and yu-na got rid of it by olympics and worlds went down to normal around ankle to no higher than knee
but most of women cleaned up skating technique so it got rid of them.
mirai started to have mule kick -but frank got rid of it.

This is an interesting topic. Rachael's and Caroline's mule kick have always bothered me, but I never really thought much about it. (I didn't notice mule kick from Mirai or Yuna, though. Could you direct me which competition I should watch, maybe?) So I went to youtube and watched some of the jumps in real time and in slow mo.

It seems to me that mule kick is not only about how high the leg goes up, but also related to the (absence of) proper toe pick technique. I think some of the mule kickers tend to 'push against' the ice instead of actually 'hitting' it with their toe. And in Caroline and Rachael's case it looks worse because they swing the entire right leg around the hip to get more power for pushing. Mao doesn't have this swing, but she doesn't really hit the ice hard with the toe either and has this a little awkward swerve of skating blade right before take off like these two. As far as I could tell, Yuna seems to be attacking the ice the hardest as her right blade is almost perpendicular to the ice at toe pick, which would explain why she gets more height and distance in her toe jumps. Joannie also has good technique in toe jumps IMO.

This was an observation from a casual fan, and I'm not sure if it makes sense since I'm no expert in techniques. I would be glad to be enlightened by someone with more knowledge! :)
 

TripleLoop

Spectator
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Who is the reining Queen of the Mule kick? Tara Lipinski
Tara had the worst mule kick that I have ever seen...on her lip and flutz.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
What about Sasha?

Unlike the others, Sasha made every position and move look good. :)

If you don't believe me - just ask Dick and Peggy ;). Or any other credible skating expert in the world.

Picking on Sasha's moves or positions :eek:
Sheer madness :biggrin:
 
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Kitt

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Country
United-States
I agree about Sasha; I didn't care too much about ladies' skating until she came along. There's not too many like her! She set the standard on spirals; no one else comes close. Well now that I think about it, Alissa is pretty close.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Sasha at 15 - according to Dick and Peggy - "exquisite," "beautiful," dainty," "perfect positions."

She set the standard for beauty in Ladies skating and most of today's skater's still can't match her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-loMk4Zrko

If she only could have stayed upright in her LP's she would have owned the ice. Michelle, Irina and Shiz never would have had a chance. :cry:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Unlike the others, Sasha made every position and move look good. :)

If you don't believe me - just ask Dick and Peggy ;). Or any other credible skating expert in the world.

Sasha miay have made it look good, but not even Wikipedia can deny that she used the flawed "mule kick" or "hammertoe" technique --which is possibly why she often had trouble controling the landings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_jump

One notable technique flaw that appears in many skaters' flips (and Lutz jumps) is "hammer toe," which occurs when the free leg rises unusually high, typically near (in some cases above) hip height, before descending to strike the ice. This can make the jump easier to rotate but sacrifices height and some control. Examples of skaters with "hammer toe" on their flip jumps include Caroline Zhang and Sasha Cohen.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Sasha miay have made it look good, but not even Wikipedia can deny that she used the flawed "mule kick" or "hammertoe" technique --which is possibly why she often had trouble controling the landings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_jump

Sorry, I agree with Dick and Peggy :)

Sasha was unique - and today we see it is her positions, spirals and spins the other girls strive to emulate. Not your favorite - but Sasha.

That is her legacy, no?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Well, since you just had to bring up "my favorite" ;) ...Yes, Sasha at fifteen was exquisite, beautiful, dainty, perfect positions -- and I'll add extraordinarily flexible, too. :clap:

At fifteen Miichelle was World Champion.

By the way, another young skater of exceptional beauty and grace was 2004 World Junior Champion Yukina Ota. :love:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxCK0fe8Y4o

Anyway, back to the topic of the mule kick, do any men have this problem?
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Well, since you just had to bring up "my favorite" ;) ...Yes, Sasha at fifteen was exquisite, beautiful, dainty, perfect positions -- and I'll add extraordinarily flexible, too. :clap:

At fifteen Miichelle was World Champion.

By the way, another young skater of exceptional beauty and grace was 2004 World Junior Champion Yukina Ota. :love:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxCK0fe8Y4o

Anyway, back to the topic of the mule kick, do any men have this problem?

Yes Yukina was a beautiful skater :love:

And one of my favorites - Lu-Chen :love: - lost what I think was a very controversial decision to Michelle in 1996.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCRaoNfU0r8

Michelle did one more triple - but I thought that night Lulu was the more beautiful skater .......

But I am fine with Michelle winning - and I think that had to be a tough night to be judging.

As years go by I find myself watching Chen-Lu's beautiful skating on YouTube quite a bit.

Sometimes I wonder if Michelle had lost that night - if that might not have been a good thing and made her more determined. She certainly won her first WC - but I don't know if she outskated Lulu that night.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ See, that is why we need fans of all different skaters, to help us keep our facts straight. :)

2004 was a great year for Miki. Her performance at senior worlds was one of her best ever. :rock:
 

MikiAndoFan#1

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
^ See, that is why we need fans of all different skaters, to help us keep our facts straight. :)

2004 was a great year for Miki. Her performance at senior worlds was one of her best ever. :rock:

:biggrin:

Yes, 2004 was an amazing year for Miki!
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
To get back to the topic of the thread, here are two videos that show pretty dramatically what we are discussing, the so-called "mule kick" or "hammertoe" entrance to the flip jump.

Let me preface this by saying that Sasha is exquisite and beautiful, so as not to get sidetracked again.

The first video is one of Sasha's all-time crowning achievements, her SP at 2010 U.S. Nationals. :love: :rock: :clap:

Note the position of Sasha's free leg at its highest point in the entrance to the her first jump, the triple Lutz in combination, and again on the entrance to her second jump, the triple flip. Her leg is at about hip height. Then it descends abruptly to jab into the ice at take-off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNweTvOwfAM

Now here is Michael Weiss demonstrating proper technique for the single, double and triple flip. Note the angle of his free leg. It is not even as high as 45 degrees off the ice.

http://www.chacha.com/video/140619168/how-to-ice-skate---the-flip-jump

The technique demonstrated by Weiss is preferred by most coaches because it is easier to control the rotation and hence the landing.

Please, this is not an invitation to a snark contest, and it has nothing to do with whether Michelle Kwan deserved to beat Lu Chen in 1996 or not. I am trying to show the difference between the two techniques.

Carioline Zhang's flip take-off is more exaggerated than Sasha's, and is less attractive, in the opinion of most observers. None of this has anything to do with whether Sasha is the most beautiful skater of all time or not -- just a comparison of two different techniques on the flip jump.

By the way, Weiss gives a great explanation of why the flip is so much more difficult than the toe-loop. In the toe-loop the hip opens naturally in the direction of rotation, allowing a pre-rotation of almost half a turn. But in the flip the position of the hip impedes rotation, and this must be overcome.
 
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dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
By the way, another young skater of exceptional beauty and grace was 2004 World Junior Champion Yukina Ota. :love:

Yukina Ota :love: With her, every move on ice is stunning. I've heard that she's returned to practicing for competitive skating (not yet close to returning to competitive ice) and that she has pretty much healed from her injury. Could anyone confirm that?
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
The first video is one of Sasha's all-time crowning achievements, her SP at 2010 U.S. Nationals.

Note the position of Sasha's free leg at its highest point in the entrance to the her first jump, the triple Lutz in combination, and again on the entrance to her second jump, the triple flip. Her leg is at about hip height. Then it descends abruptly to jab into the ice at take-off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNweTvOwfAM

Yes, but she does it with controlled, continuous movement unlike the jarring takeoff Caroline and Racheal employ.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Yes, but she does it with controlled, continuous movement unlike the jarring takeoff Caroline and Racheal employ.

I agree ....... and her air position is typically superior and she attacks this jump with much more speed. Caroline/Rachael vs Sasha - for me not the best comparison.

Was wondering about the clip of Sasha's 2010 SP.

During her spiral sequence she does a split jump.
Would judges give her points toward her TR mark for this - or would they boost her spiral marks -or both?

Just wondering since there has been some discussion about TR marks becoming too important.

My thoughts would be that Sasha's spiral sequence at Natls was not only very good - but also more creative than the others. If skater's are not to be rewarded for creativity then we will see the same boring spiral sequences done over and over by most of the other Ladies.

They will all try to do level four requirements and will almost all look the same .......... zzzzzzzzzzz
 
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