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Thread: The mule kick

  1. #31
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Well, since you just had to bring up "my favorite" ...Yes, Sasha at fifteen was exquisite, beautiful, dainty, perfect positions -- and I'll add extraordinarily flexible, too.

    At fifteen Miichelle was World Champion.

    By the way, another young skater of exceptional beauty and grace was 2004 World Junior Champion Yukina Ota.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxCK0fe8Y4o

    Anyway, back to the topic of the mule kick, do any men have this problem?

  2. #32
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well, since you just had to bring up "my favorite" ...Yes, Sasha at fifteen was exquisite, beautiful, dainty, perfect positions -- and I'll add extraordinarily flexible, too.

    At fifteen Miichelle was World Champion.

    By the way, another young skater of exceptional beauty and grace was 2004 World Junior Champion Yukina Ota.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxCK0fe8Y4o

    Anyway, back to the topic of the mule kick, do any men have this problem?
    Yes Yukina was a beautiful skater

    And one of my favorites - Lu-Chen - lost what I think was a very controversial decision to Michelle in 1996.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCRaoNfU0r8

    Michelle did one more triple - but I thought that night Lulu was the more beautiful skater .......

    But I am fine with Michelle winning - and I think that had to be a tough night to be judging.

    As years go by I find myself watching Chen-Lu's beautiful skating on YouTube quite a bit.

    Sometimes I wonder if Michelle had lost that night - if that might not have been a good thing and made her more determined. She certainly won her first WC - but I don't know if she outskated Lulu that night.

  3. #33
    Custom Title MikiAndoFan#1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    By the way, another young skater of exceptional beauty and grace was 2004 World Junior Champion Yukina Ota.
    Miki was the 2004 World Junior Champion!



    Yukina was the 2003 World Junior Champion.


  4. #34
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ See, that is why we need fans of all different skaters, to help us keep our facts straight.

    2004 was a great year for Miki. Her performance at senior worlds was one of her best ever.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ See, that is why we need fans of all different skaters, to help us keep our facts straight.

    2004 was a great year for Miki. Her performance at senior worlds was one of her best ever.


    Yes, 2004 was an amazing year for Miki!

  6. #36
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    To get back to the topic of the thread, here are two videos that show pretty dramatically what we are discussing, the so-called "mule kick" or "hammertoe" entrance to the flip jump.

    Let me preface this by saying that Sasha is exquisite and beautiful, so as not to get sidetracked again.

    The first video is one of Sasha's all-time crowning achievements, her SP at 2010 U.S. Nationals.

    Note the position of Sasha's free leg at its highest point in the entrance to the her first jump, the triple Lutz in combination, and again on the entrance to her second jump, the triple flip. Her leg is at about hip height. Then it descends abruptly to jab into the ice at take-off.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNweTvOwfAM

    Now here is Michael Weiss demonstrating proper technique for the single, double and triple flip. Note the angle of his free leg. It is not even as high as 45 degrees off the ice.

    http://www.chacha.com/video/14061916...-the-flip-jump

    The technique demonstrated by Weiss is preferred by most coaches because it is easier to control the rotation and hence the landing.

    Please, this is not an invitation to a snark contest, and it has nothing to do with whether Michelle Kwan deserved to beat Lu Chen in 1996 or not. I am trying to show the difference between the two techniques.

    Carioline Zhang's flip take-off is more exaggerated than Sasha's, and is less attractive, in the opinion of most observers. None of this has anything to do with whether Sasha is the most beautiful skater of all time or not -- just a comparison of two different techniques on the flip jump.

    By the way, Weiss gives a great explanation of why the flip is so much more difficult than the toe-loop. In the toe-loop the hip opens naturally in the direction of rotation, allowing a pre-rotation of almost half a turn. But in the flip the position of the hip impedes rotation, and this must be overcome.
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-31-2010 at 08:27 PM.

  7. #37
    Waiting for on-ice perfection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    By the way, another young skater of exceptional beauty and grace was 2004 World Junior Champion Yukina Ota.
    Yukina Ota With her, every move on ice is stunning. I've heard that she's returned to practicing for competitive skating (not yet close to returning to competitive ice) and that she has pretty much healed from her injury. Could anyone confirm that?

  8. #38
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    The first video is one of Sasha's all-time crowning achievements, her SP at 2010 U.S. Nationals.

    Note the position of Sasha's free leg at its highest point in the entrance to the her first jump, the triple Lutz in combination, and again on the entrance to her second jump, the triple flip. Her leg is at about hip height. Then it descends abruptly to jab into the ice at take-off.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNweTvOwfAM
    Yes, but she does it with controlled, continuous movement unlike the jarring takeoff Caroline and Racheal employ.

  9. #39
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    Yes, but she does it with controlled, continuous movement unlike the jarring takeoff Caroline and Racheal employ.
    I agree ....... and her air position is typically superior and she attacks this jump with much more speed. Caroline/Rachael vs Sasha - for me not the best comparison.

    Was wondering about the clip of Sasha's 2010 SP.

    During her spiral sequence she does a split jump.
    Would judges give her points toward her TR mark for this - or would they boost her spiral marks -or both?

    Just wondering since there has been some discussion about TR marks becoming too important.

    My thoughts would be that Sasha's spiral sequence at Natls was not only very good - but also more creative than the others. If skater's are not to be rewarded for creativity then we will see the same boring spiral sequences done over and over by most of the other Ladies.

    They will all try to do level four requirements and will almost all look the same .......... zzzzzzzzzzz

  10. #40
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    Is there a difference beetwen "mule kick" and "toe hammering"?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    Is there a difference beetwen "mule kick" and "toe hammering"?
    I don't think either one is an official figure skating term. As far as I can tell, the two terms are used pretty much interchangably. If you say "mule kick" I suppose you are emphasizing the height of the free leg and if you say "toe hammer" you are emphasizing the force with which the skater drives the pick into the ice.

    I cannot think of any men who have adopted this technique. I think it is because men rely more on the strength of their jumping leg and less on the "pole vault" effect of the pick.

    Here is a good example of a nice easy-does-it pick and lift into a Lutz and a flip. (At the end of the clip both are shown in slow motion.) Of all people, this is Alissa Czizny demonstarting jump technique!

    Her free leg is somewhat elevated (compared to a man), but not as high as her hip, and she kind of pushes down into the ice with her pick instead of jamming it. This is a good example of why I think well-done techniical elements ought to be taken into account in the PCSs as well as in the GOEs for particular elements.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7eNDmgq704

  12. #42
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Just watch the tape. Alissa is a beautiful skater, such a shame she couldn't keep it together when she really needed to. she could easily have been a World Champ

  13. #43
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This is a good example of why I think well-done techniical elements ought to be taken into account in the PCSs as well as in the GOEs for particular elements.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7eNDmgq704
    I really think that so makes sense. I so wish that would be the case.

    But then, wouldn't there be a huge debate as to what constitutes 'good technique'.
    And then there might be problems in that bad technique such as a mule kick or toe hammer is what is enabling a jumper to have a huge, speedy jump that is credited under GoE.
    Also, what happens if a skater 'invents' a new technique that could be considered 'good'?

    But I'm in agreement with awarding GoEs for good technique.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrissy51 View Post
    Just watch the tape. Alissa is a beautiful skater, such a shame she couldn't keep it together when she really needed to. she could easily have been a World Champ
    Let's be honest here, in order to be a world champ she would have needed more consistency AND more jump content. I don't think she's ever done a 3-3 in her life, she can't do a salchow, and she ALWAYS URs her 3 loop. So a world champ with 3toe, 2a, and a problematic 3lutz and 3flip (she falls on those jumps all the time)? Yeah....unless you're Laura Lepisto I don't think that will ever happen. Love her spins though!

  15. #45
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ Actually, Alissa's loop and flip aren't that bad, and I am pretty sure she has done a triple-toe/triple toe combo (in some of the summer warm-up contests leading up to the 2008-09 season?) The Salchow -- OK, you've got me there.

    On the other hand, Alissa has the best Lutz take-off edge of all the U.S. ladies (granted that is not saying much ). I have seen her in practice glide the whole circumference of the rink on an outside back edge, then go right up for a Lutz.

    Alissa's problem is not faulty technique, it is simple stage fright. When the bright lights go on her nervous system betrays her, she is unable to co-ordinate all the parts of the body that are supposed to be working together, she can't generate the height and rotation -- down she goes.

    I think she will be a big hit on SOI.

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