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Thread: It's Time to Change the Short Program

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    It's Time to Change the Short Program

    There really is a need to separate the Elements from the Artistry. At least the Quad complainers will have their day to prove they've worked hard on a particulary difficult element and were credited for it. That is if it is presented and executed by definition. Of course there would be other elements to consider who is the best in the Elements Category.
    I would suggest 5 jump elements selected by the competitor with one combo included as well as 3 spins with 1 combo included. (not unlike Diving competition). A medal for the highest total score for the Element Contest would be awarded for the skater (not unlike Gynastics).

    Holding on to these totals and on another day, have the Artistry judges for skating to music. While it will be judged by opinions and visual errors, the scores should name a winner and that skater will earn a medal for the best skated artistic program.

    Alll the Elements scores and Artistry scores will be summed up for the overall winner and podium of the entire competition.

    Would the above plan be wrong to eliminate one 'artisty comp' ?

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    Artistry will always be subjective, no matter how you tweak the system. And as for having two winners and an overall winner, it's a bit... I don't know, but I'm uneasy w/it. The best skaters should be able to marry artistry AND the technical aspects of the program together It's not just about mastery over one aspect of figure skating; it's about having the overall package.

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    Besides all the elments mentioned by Joesitz, all the skaters must use the same music. What do you think?
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-28-2010 at 05:50 PM.

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    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Unbelievably boring after the first two or three skaters. No one would watch. Bad idea.

    Anyway, I don't understand the concept of artistry separated from technique. The whole point is to demonstrate artistry while executing a high order of tech difficulty, no? Artistry w/o tech difficulty = show skating and I can't see giving prizes for that. (Which is better, Shae Lynn making love to a chair or Plushy Sex Bomb?)

    This proposal seems to be designed only for the KVDPs of skating and to be honest, he's a refrigerator break for me (although happily I caught the 4-3-3 this weekend!!).
    Last edited by Spun Silver; 03-28-2010 at 05:22 PM.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Certainly the SP has to be tweaked so it is no longer a mini-freeskate. The freeskate needed fewer required elements so it is less of a extended-short. I feel as though the emphasis should be on thr TES in the SP and the other way around in the free.. maybe with the TES scores multiplied by 1.5 or something for the short or something like that. There also have to be more penalties for missing a required element other than not getting the planned points. For example a skater who falls on the first jump on their combo and fails to tack on the combo to the next jumping pass should be penalized for the fall and for failing to complete a requirment. If the skater does tack on the combo to the next jumping pass, the triple out of steps they should be penalized for not completing the solo jump of out steps. While this seems harsh, it is the only way to make these elements trully "required." that said, the freeskate should be a lot more "free." no Zyack rules, no required step/ spiral sequences (if a guy wants to do a spiral sequence as opposed to steps that should be fine). I think the limit of jumping passes should be 7 and that limit on triples should be dropped.

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    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    (Which is better, Shae Lynn making love to a chair or Plushy Sex Bomb?)
    Neither, try Kurt's Nyah...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Unbelievably boring after the first two or three skaters. No one would watch. Bad idea.

    Anyway, I don't understand the concept of artistry separated from technique. The whole point is to demonstrate artistry while executing a high order of tech difficulty, no? Artistry w/o tech difficulty = show skating and I can't see giving prizes for that. (Which is better, Shae Lynn making love to a chair or Plushy Sex Bomb?)

    I don't even think the first two or three skaters would be interesting. I wouldn't even tune in. It removes everything that I watch figure skating for. Sorry, but this idea gets a big thumbs down for me. They might be able to pick up a few new fans (though I doubt many), however they would likely lose the majority of the current fans, like myself.

    That is actually quite a cool idea, now that I understand it better.

    So it would go something like this? At the beginning of the season the ISU would hire an impartial team of choreographers to come up with two choreographic templates, one to Swan Lake and one to Carmen. The basic shape of the program would be set, together with the placement of the elements. Maybe there would be one edge jump in combination (3Lz+3T down to 2T+2T for seniors), one edge jump (loop if you have it, otherwise Salchow), and one Axel. Similarly for the types of spins and for the steps and turns in the footwork

    Maybe you could do a spread eagle OR an Ina Bauer, and a split jump OR a Charlotte.

    There would be no marks for choreography, interpretation, or transitions, but there would be a score for skating skills and performance/execution as well as base values and GOEs for elements.

    Over the years you build up a library of these programs, which could be repeated, rotated and modified as need be. We could compare the Carmen #5 programs of skaters from different seasons and different eras, and children could study and emulate the Great Performances.
    Except, isn't this basically the compulsory dance applied to all of figure skating. And isn't the CD on its way out because it's too boring for television?
    Last edited by rain; 04-04-2010 at 12:02 PM.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Unbelievably boring after the first two or three skaters. No one would watch. Bad idea.

    Anyway, I don't understand the concept of artistry separated from technique. The whole point is to demonstrate artistry while executing a high order of tech difficulty, no? Artistry w/o tech difficulty = show skating and I can't see giving prizes for that. (Which is better, Shae Lynn making love to a chair or Plushy Sex Bomb?)

    This proposal seems to be designed only for the KVDPs of skating and to be honest, he's a refrigerator break for me (although happily I caught the 4-3-3 this weekend!!).
    I disagree. The CoP with the exception of plus GoEs does account for the precision of the elements. Why do you bring up show skating?
    If you know the history of figure skating, the SP and its huge amount of artistry is relatively new and there was no SP as part of its beginnings. The SP was originally introduced as an element sector. Do you watch the early groups of competition?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith11 View Post
    Artistry will always be subjective, no matter how you tweak the system. And as for having two winners and an overall winner, it's a bit... I don't know, but I'm uneasy w/it. The best skaters should be able to marry artistry AND the technical aspects of the program together It's not just about mastery over one aspect of figure skating; it's about having the overall package.
    Actually elements can be measured without artistry. There are definitions and procedures which are measureable by the eyes as long as they follow the definition. Artistry is the obscure form of judging, and it's all in the minds of the judges and the judging public.

    Once in a while, I see a skater or a team with skating artistry. This season I would say Pan/Tong, and Virtue/Moir. but then I have outside interests which involves artistic pursuits and I don't rely on figure skating. Its just me getting some sport in.

    There will be many fans watching an element contest if one were held, and I dare say there would be more than would show up for the early groups of figure skaters. I don't want to eliminate the artistry factor. It should be in the Free Skate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post


    Actually elements can be measured without artistry. There are definitions and procedures which are measureable by the eyes as long as they follow the definition. Artistry is the obscure form of judging, and it's all in the minds of the judges and the judging public.
    Certainly, but that's the technical part, yes? Artistry would refer to how the skater relates to the audience, how s/he expresses the song, how they connect, how moving s/he is, etc, etc. Which is subjective, as a skater can touch the heart of one and leave another completely cold.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith11 View Post
    Certainly, but that's the technical part, yes? Artistry would refer to how the skater relates to the audience, how s/he expresses the song, how they connect, how moving s/he is, etc, etc. Which is subjective, as a skater can touch the heart of one and leave another completely cold.
    That's my point. Artistry (I use the old term of Presentation) will definitely move some people as you say, but Technical is measureable whereas PC is all about opinions. Note the noun, Artistry is not in the book of rules. Did anyone relate to you from the last two groups at the recent Olys? Certainly not the first two groups.

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    :) aftertherain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    That's my point. Artistry (I use the old term of Presentation) will definitely move some people as you say, but Technical is measureable whereas PC is all about opinions. Note the noun, Artistry is not in the book of rules. Did anyone relate to you from the last two groups at the recent Olys? Certainly not the first two groups.
    Some would argue that the technical elements of figure skating are also about opinions. That's what GOE is for, right? Unless you're not counting GOEs, but simply base values.

    But I like watching short programs, so I don't know how your plan would work out with figure skating fans and casual viewers.

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