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Thread: It's Time to Change the Short Program

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    It's Time to Change the Short Program

    There really is a need to separate the Elements from the Artistry. At least the Quad complainers will have their day to prove they've worked hard on a particulary difficult element and were credited for it. That is if it is presented and executed by definition. Of course there would be other elements to consider who is the best in the Elements Category.
    I would suggest 5 jump elements selected by the competitor with one combo included as well as 3 spins with 1 combo included. (not unlike Diving competition). A medal for the highest total score for the Element Contest would be awarded for the skater (not unlike Gynastics).

    Holding on to these totals and on another day, have the Artistry judges for skating to music. While it will be judged by opinions and visual errors, the scores should name a winner and that skater will earn a medal for the best skated artistic program.

    Alll the Elements scores and Artistry scores will be summed up for the overall winner and podium of the entire competition.

    Would the above plan be wrong to eliminate one 'artisty comp' ?

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    Artistry will always be subjective, no matter how you tweak the system. And as for having two winners and an overall winner, it's a bit... I don't know, but I'm uneasy w/it. The best skaters should be able to marry artistry AND the technical aspects of the program together It's not just about mastery over one aspect of figure skating; it's about having the overall package.

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    Besides all the elments mentioned by Joesitz, all the skaters must use the same music. What do you think?
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-28-2010 at 05:50 PM.

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    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Unbelievably boring after the first two or three skaters. No one would watch. Bad idea.

    Anyway, I don't understand the concept of artistry separated from technique. The whole point is to demonstrate artistry while executing a high order of tech difficulty, no? Artistry w/o tech difficulty = show skating and I can't see giving prizes for that. (Which is better, Shae Lynn making love to a chair or Plushy Sex Bomb?)

    This proposal seems to be designed only for the KVDPs of skating and to be honest, he's a refrigerator break for me (although happily I caught the 4-3-3 this weekend!!).
    Last edited by Spun Silver; 03-28-2010 at 05:22 PM.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Certainly the SP has to be tweaked so it is no longer a mini-freeskate. The freeskate needed fewer required elements so it is less of a extended-short. I feel as though the emphasis should be on thr TES in the SP and the other way around in the free.. maybe with the TES scores multiplied by 1.5 or something for the short or something like that. There also have to be more penalties for missing a required element other than not getting the planned points. For example a skater who falls on the first jump on their combo and fails to tack on the combo to the next jumping pass should be penalized for the fall and for failing to complete a requirment. If the skater does tack on the combo to the next jumping pass, the triple out of steps they should be penalized for not completing the solo jump of out steps. While this seems harsh, it is the only way to make these elements trully "required." that said, the freeskate should be a lot more "free." no Zyack rules, no required step/ spiral sequences (if a guy wants to do a spiral sequence as opposed to steps that should be fine). I think the limit of jumping passes should be 7 and that limit on triples should be dropped.

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    (Which is better, Shae Lynn making love to a chair or Plushy Sex Bomb?)
    Neither, try Kurt's Nyah...

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Unbelievably boring after the first two or three skaters. No one would watch. Bad idea.

    Anyway, I don't understand the concept of artistry separated from technique. The whole point is to demonstrate artistry while executing a high order of tech difficulty, no? Artistry w/o tech difficulty = show skating and I can't see giving prizes for that. (Which is better, Shae Lynn making love to a chair or Plushy Sex Bomb?)

    This proposal seems to be designed only for the KVDPs of skating and to be honest, he's a refrigerator break for me (although happily I caught the 4-3-3 this weekend!!).
    I disagree. The CoP with the exception of plus GoEs does account for the precision of the elements. Why do you bring up show skating?
    If you know the history of figure skating, the SP and its huge amount of artistry is relatively new and there was no SP as part of its beginnings. The SP was originally introduced as an element sector. Do you watch the early groups of competition?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith11 View Post
    Artistry will always be subjective, no matter how you tweak the system. And as for having two winners and an overall winner, it's a bit... I don't know, but I'm uneasy w/it. The best skaters should be able to marry artistry AND the technical aspects of the program together It's not just about mastery over one aspect of figure skating; it's about having the overall package.
    Actually elements can be measured without artistry. There are definitions and procedures which are measureable by the eyes as long as they follow the definition. Artistry is the obscure form of judging, and it's all in the minds of the judges and the judging public.

    Once in a while, I see a skater or a team with skating artistry. This season I would say Pan/Tong, and Virtue/Moir. but then I have outside interests which involves artistic pursuits and I don't rely on figure skating. Its just me getting some sport in.

    There will be many fans watching an element contest if one were held, and I dare say there would be more than would show up for the early groups of figure skaters. I don't want to eliminate the artistry factor. It should be in the Free Skate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post


    Actually elements can be measured without artistry. There are definitions and procedures which are measureable by the eyes as long as they follow the definition. Artistry is the obscure form of judging, and it's all in the minds of the judges and the judging public.
    Certainly, but that's the technical part, yes? Artistry would refer to how the skater relates to the audience, how s/he expresses the song, how they connect, how moving s/he is, etc, etc. Which is subjective, as a skater can touch the heart of one and leave another completely cold.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith11 View Post
    Certainly, but that's the technical part, yes? Artistry would refer to how the skater relates to the audience, how s/he expresses the song, how they connect, how moving s/he is, etc, etc. Which is subjective, as a skater can touch the heart of one and leave another completely cold.
    That's my point. Artistry (I use the old term of Presentation) will definitely move some people as you say, but Technical is measureable whereas PC is all about opinions. Note the noun, Artistry is not in the book of rules. Did anyone relate to you from the last two groups at the recent Olys? Certainly not the first two groups.

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    :) aftertherain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    That's my point. Artistry (I use the old term of Presentation) will definitely move some people as you say, but Technical is measureable whereas PC is all about opinions. Note the noun, Artistry is not in the book of rules. Did anyone relate to you from the last two groups at the recent Olys? Certainly not the first two groups.
    Some would argue that the technical elements of figure skating are also about opinions. That's what GOE is for, right? Unless you're not counting GOEs, but simply base values.

    But I like watching short programs, so I don't know how your plan would work out with figure skating fans and casual viewers.

  11. #11
    Tripping on the Podium
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    It could work, you could use the short program the way figures were used, not many people watched figures but they counted toward the total score. Let's judge the hard jumps and give these guys credit for having the guts to perform them.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrissy51 View Post
    It could work, you could use the short program the way figures were used, not many people watched figures but they counted toward the total score. Let's judge the hard jumps and give these guys credit for having the guts to perform them.
    Atter girl. An element phase in the competition would also have the skaters as nervous as in the miniskate and it could offer more elements to be judged. The Free Skate would basically remain the same except the factor for PC scores would double that of the elements. Fans will still watch TV if the Elements Segment is playing, and All would watch the PC Segment. No big deal and as you say it replaces the old School Figures Segment. also I think it would get more respect in the Athletes Community, but maybe less in the pagaent community.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I guess I am one of the few skating fans who like the short program OK the way it is.

    There are two programs, the short and the long. They differ from one another in that the short program is a little shorter and the long program is a little longer. That's about it. (Except that possibly we should rename the long program and call it the technical program instead, since it typically contains more technical elements, at the expense of choreography and interpretation. In fact, the long program is almost too long -- it is hard to keep the attention of the audience through four and a half minutes of required jumps, spins and footwork.)

    So why have two programs when one will do? I would say, for the same reason that the World Series is seven games instead of three. Fans like baseball.

    To me, it is like a violin-playing contest in two parts. First you go out and play a sonata, then the next day you take on a concerto. Add up the scores for the overall winner.

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    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I guess I am one of the few skating fans who like the short program OK the way it is.

    There are two programs, the short and the long. They differ from one another in that the short program is a little shorter and the long program is a little longer. That's about it. (Except that possibly we should rename the long program and call it the technical program instead, since it typically contains more technical elements, at the expense of choreography and interpretation. In fact, the long program is almost too long -- it is hard to keep the attention of the audience through four and a half minutes of required jumps, spins and footwork.)

    So why have two programs when one will do? I would say, for the same reason that the World Series is seven games instead of three. Fans like baseball.

    To me, it is like a violin-playing contest in two parts. First you go out and play a sonata, then the next day you take on a concerto. Add up the scores for the overall winner.

    If I were you, I would rather put it this way - "I guess I am one of the few active posters of GS who like the short program OK the way it is" 'Cause I believe, there must be a number of figure skating fans (including myself) who feel the same way as you do about the short program.

  15. #15
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I guess I am one of the few skating fans who like the short program OK the way it is.

    There are two programs, the short and the long. They differ from one another in that the short program is a little shorter and the long program is a little longer. That's about it. (Except that possibly we should rename the long program and call it the technical program instead, since it typically contains more technical elements, at the expense of choreography and interpretation. In fact, the long program is almost too long -- it is hard to keep the attention of the audience through four and a half minutes of required jumps, spins and footwork.)
    I...agree with you. But maybe it's because it's much harder to put together a masterful LP?

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