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Thread: It's Time to Change the Short Program

  1. #16
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalebsMom View Post
    If I were you, I would rather put it this way - "I guess I am one of the few active posters of GS who like the short program OK the way it is" 'Cause I believe, there must be a number of figure skating fans (including myself) who feel the same way as you do about the short program.
    I think the fans definitely like the SP the way it is. The artistry alone cries out to all the masses and it is comparable with the great works of ART.

    Can anyone watch Verdi's Aida and see the real artistry without triple salchows? It will be on this week on PBS. Try it. I somehow think that artistry in figure skating only exists in the minds of fans who do not attend other sources of ART.:sheesh:

    BTW - What is the difference between the SP and the LP? and how do you define artistry as opposed to presentation?

  2. #17
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I think the fans definitely like the SP the way it is.
    Then what's the problem?

  3. #18
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Then what's the problem?
    If I were to answer that, I would be thrown off the Board,

    Most fans see the SP as just another 'fix' for their lack of 'artistry' in their lives and with costumes, sequens and beads, and, of course, anything that reminds them of ballet which they never seen.

    Others, like myself, don't want to lose sight of the SPORT and it should play an important role in the game. The SP could spell Sport. Maybe we could move Figure Skating to the Sport of Pagaents

    But I understand the fixation of perceived artistry.

  4. #19
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    That must be the answer, all us lowly plebs who only watch figure skating to get our fix of "art".

    The only possible way figure skating could continue is if some high brow man, who fills his life with real art, tells us what we should and shouldn't think about skating, since he deigns to watch figure skating despite all of the other rich and high brow art in his life....

  5. #20
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    Having seen ballet and figure skating I feel so embarrassed to admit ......that I prefer skating. :o
    Maybe because I used to skate alot growing up but never took any ballet classes.

    I also like the SP as it stands right now. I liked Mirai's "Pirates" and Yuna's "Bond Girl," and so many others.......

    I think if there were to be a change I might wish for the LP to become a bit more free.

    But this type of thinking is really based in 6.0 scoring philosophy.
    The CoP is designed to give skaters points for elements and GOE for how they perform the elements.

    It is still a relatively new system but the concept of a "free" skate has been changed as skaters have no choice but to try and score as many points as possible. This is where TR, CH and IN come into the equation. Some think they are becoming too important - but I think they must be emphasized and rewarded or skating will become too robotic.
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-01-2010 at 08:39 AM.

  6. #21
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Most fans see the SP as just another 'fix' for their lack of 'artistry' in their lives and with costumes, sequens and beads, and, of course, anything that reminds them of ballet which they never seen.
    So, skating fans are hicks from the sticks who've never seen Swan Lake and have no beauty in their lives.

    No doubt they're the same people who cling to guns and religion and vote conservative.

    Why on earth would you want to spend your time talking to us dolts?

  7. #22
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    I also love skating but I think it's being made easier. I love to see the difficult jumps along with good speed, spins and presentation. In other words the whole package, If we crown the men's champion and the hardest jumps are not in the program, what's the purpose of going forward with the sport. I love a great program with high level footwork, edges and spins and they should be rewarded but the quad jump is simply harder to do than spins and that's being overlooked.

  8. #23
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    While to separate the jumps from artistry could satisfy some of the need for high scores on technical front, it is really, like some have said, boring if you think about it. People become fans doesn't mean that people like to see the tech alone, or like to see the artistry alone. I don't know why we have to separate them? What a beauty it is if one could mix them together?!

    The problem is not whether to separate them or not. It is how you weigh these two parts in a single program. I think the IJS hasn't come up with a right combinaton yet.
    Last edited by jennylovskt; 04-01-2010 at 08:34 PM.

  9. #24
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    What the ISU can do is set up a SP for 2 minutes without any music to allow skaters to furfill all the require elements. That way there will no subjective regarding with second mark, at least in the SP. Gymnastics has 'Vault' and there is no artistry or anything. Gymnast just zoom right into the difficult vault and get the mark. If the ISU, keep saying SP is for require technical mark they should do that way.

  10. #25
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    What the ISU can do is set up a SP for 2 minutes without any music to allow skaters to furfill all the require elements.
    IF this were to happen, I'd like to see the jumps and spins separated into separate events, not crammed together in the same 2 minutes.

    And then maybe have a separate event focused on skating edges, turns, and steps, etc., with no difficult jumps or spins, to music. This would be the art

    The long program is not and never has been primarily about artistry; historically it has been about showing off as many as possible of one's best skills in one program, including presentation skills as well as technique, and it is also more of a test of stamina and conditioning than the SP.

    These are my reasons:

    1) It would give skaters who excel in only one area of skating a chance to be recognized for that excellence and earn at least a small medal in that area.

    2) Allowing skaters to focus only on jumps for 2 minutes, with or without breaks to catch breath allowed in between, would allow them to attempt more difficult jump content in this part of the competition than they would be wise to risk when faced with the need to stay fresh for a whole program. Similarly, they would be able to perform their hardest spins on fresh legs without having to worry about recovering from dizziness before doing jumps afterward.

    Of course, having each skater take the ice 3 or 4 times instead of just 2 would increase the duration and cost of events, so I don't expect it to happen any time soon.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    There are two programs, the short and the long. They differ from one another in that the short program is a little shorter and the long program is a little longer.
    You made my day, mathman. I haven't laughed that hard since the first time I heard that the plural of anecdote is not data.

    I also like the SP the way it is. It's the no-longer-free free skate that gives me issues.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by decker View Post
    I also like the SP the way it is. It's the no-longer-free free skate that gives me issues.
    and I daresay, lose a chance at artistry where the LP doesn't work. No.

    Does everyone realize that the majority of the Forum (women and Mathman) need this artistry. Does that tell you anything?

  13. #28
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ That Mathman is actually a woman?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    IF this were to happen, I'd like to see the jumps and spins separated into separate events, not crammed together in the same 2 minutes.

    And then maybe have a separate event focused on skating edges, turns, and steps, etc., with no difficult jumps or spins, to music. This would be the art

    The long program is not and never has been primarily about artistry; historically it has been about showing off as many as possible of one's best skills in one program, including presentation skills as well as technique, and it is also more of a test of stamina and conditioning than the SP.

    These are my reasons:

    1) It would give skaters who excel in only one area of skating a chance to be recognized for that excellence and earn at least a small medal in that area.

    2) Allowing skaters to focus only on jumps for 2 minutes, with or without breaks to catch breath allowed in between, would allow them to attempt more difficult jump content in this part of the competition than they would be wise to risk when faced with the need to stay fresh for a whole program. Similarly, they would be able to perform their hardest spins on fresh legs without having to worry about recovering from dizziness before doing jumps afterward.

    Of course, having each skater take the ice 3 or 4 times instead of just 2 would increase the duration and cost of events, so I don't expect it to happen any time soon.
    I believe that these kinds of competitions would make figure skating shrink a lot faster than it does now. Even many skaters would quit figure skating.

  15. #30
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    IF this were to happen, I'd like to see the jumps and spins separated into separate events, not crammed together in the same 2 minutes.

    And then maybe have a separate event focused on skating edges, turns, and steps, etc., with no difficult jumps or spins, to music.
    But would you rather have that or this (Yagudin's Winter)?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEfR4dQ8wAw

    In general, I think it is really cool when we see a paired SP and LP, in contrasting yet complementary theme and spirit. Sasha's Maleguena/Swan Lake, for instance.

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