It's Time to Change the Short Program | Page 2 | Golden Skate

It's Time to Change the Short Program

Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Most fans see the SP as just another 'fix' for their lack of 'artistry' in their lives and with costumes, sequens and beads, and, of course, anything that reminds them of ballet which they never seen.
So, skating fans are hicks from the sticks who've never seen Swan Lake and have no beauty in their lives.

No doubt they're the same people who cling to guns and religion and vote conservative.

Why on earth would you want to spend your time talking to us dolts? :confused:
 

chrissy51

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 11, 2003
I also love skating but I think it's being made easier. I love to see the difficult jumps along with good speed, spins and presentation. In other words the whole package, If we crown the men's champion and the hardest jumps are not in the program, what's the purpose of going forward with the sport. I love a great program with high level footwork, edges and spins and they should be rewarded but the quad jump is simply harder to do than spins and that's being overlooked.
 

jennylovskt

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
While to separate the jumps from artistry could satisfy some of the need for high scores on technical front, it is really, like some have said, boring if you think about it. People become fans doesn't mean that people like to see the tech alone, or like to see the artistry alone. I don't know why we have to separate them? What a beauty it is if one could mix them together?!

The problem is not whether to separate them or not. It is how you weigh these two parts in a single program. I think the IJS hasn't come up with a right combinaton yet.
 
Last edited:

wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
What the ISU can do is set up a SP for 2 minutes without any music to allow skaters to furfill all the require elements. That way there will no subjective regarding with second mark, at least in the SP. Gymnastics has 'Vault' and there is no artistry or anything. Gymnast just zoom right into the difficult vault and get the mark. If the ISU, keep saying SP is for require technical mark they should do that way.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
What the ISU can do is set up a SP for 2 minutes without any music to allow skaters to furfill all the require elements.

IF this were to happen, I'd like to see the jumps and spins separated into separate events, not crammed together in the same 2 minutes.

And then maybe have a separate event focused on skating edges, turns, and steps, etc., with no difficult jumps or spins, to music. This would be the art

The long program is not and never has been primarily about artistry; historically it has been about showing off as many as possible of one's best skills in one program, including presentation skills as well as technique, and it is also more of a test of stamina and conditioning than the SP.

These are my reasons:

1) It would give skaters who excel in only one area of skating a chance to be recognized for that excellence and earn at least a small medal in that area.

2) Allowing skaters to focus only on jumps for 2 minutes, with or without breaks to catch breath allowed in between, would allow them to attempt more difficult jump content in this part of the competition than they would be wise to risk when faced with the need to stay fresh for a whole program. Similarly, they would be able to perform their hardest spins on fresh legs without having to worry about recovering from dizziness before doing jumps afterward.

Of course, having each skater take the ice 3 or 4 times instead of just 2 would increase the duration and cost of events, so I don't expect it to happen any time soon.
 

decker

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
There are two programs, the short and the long. They differ from one another in that the short program is a little shorter and the long program is a little longer.

You made my day, mathman. I haven't laughed that hard since the first time I heard that the plural of anecdote is not data. :laugh:

I also like the SP the way it is. It's the no-longer-free free skate that gives me issues.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I also like the SP the way it is. It's the no-longer-free free skate that gives me issues.
and I daresay, lose a chance at artistry where the LP doesn't work. No.

Does everyone realize that the majority of the Forum (women and Mathman) need this artistry. Does that tell you anything?
 

jennylovskt

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
IF this were to happen, I'd like to see the jumps and spins separated into separate events, not crammed together in the same 2 minutes.

And then maybe have a separate event focused on skating edges, turns, and steps, etc., with no difficult jumps or spins, to music. This would be the art

The long program is not and never has been primarily about artistry; historically it has been about showing off as many as possible of one's best skills in one program, including presentation skills as well as technique, and it is also more of a test of stamina and conditioning than the SP.

These are my reasons:

1) It would give skaters who excel in only one area of skating a chance to be recognized for that excellence and earn at least a small medal in that area.

2) Allowing skaters to focus only on jumps for 2 minutes, with or without breaks to catch breath allowed in between, would allow them to attempt more difficult jump content in this part of the competition than they would be wise to risk when faced with the need to stay fresh for a whole program. Similarly, they would be able to perform their hardest spins on fresh legs without having to worry about recovering from dizziness before doing jumps afterward.

Of course, having each skater take the ice 3 or 4 times instead of just 2 would increase the duration and cost of events, so I don't expect it to happen any time soon.

I believe that these kinds of competitions would make figure skating shrink a lot faster than it does now. Even many skaters would quit figure skating.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
IF this were to happen, I'd like to see the jumps and spins separated into separate events, not crammed together in the same 2 minutes.

And then maybe have a separate event focused on skating edges, turns, and steps, etc., with no difficult jumps or spins, to music.

But would you rather have that or this (Yagudin's Winter)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEfR4dQ8wAw

In general, I think it is really cool when we see a paired SP and LP, in contrasting yet complementary theme and spirit. Sasha's Maleguena/Swan Lake, for instance.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I know I remember people calling the short program the technical program. That is where you get short amount of time to demonstrate required elements. One after another. In the long program there is not so much pressure and lots use the time to build into their jumps. I just think PCS should be removed from the short program score.
 

babyalligator

On the Ice
Joined
May 18, 2009
Can anyone watch Verdi's Aida and see the real artistry without triple salchows? It will be on this week on PBS. Try it. I somehow think that artistry in figure skating only exists in the minds of fans who do not attend other sources of ART.:sheesh:

Yes. I can see "real" artistry with and without triple salchows. I am a regular visitor of museums and galleries. I attend concerts. In fact, I will be seeing La Traviata at the Met in a couple weeks, and Tosca after that. That said, I also love figure skating and do find "real" artistry in individual skaters. And honestly, just because something is from the opera world, does not mean that it is automatically artistic.:sheesh:
As an instrumentalist, I could nitpick and say that your choice of opera as a general example of "real" artistry is controversial in itself. Opera is not only the music, but also a visual spectacle. If we're talking about music in its purest form, then you might have a point. But, I know plenty of "sophisticated" people who would have their socks bored off of them if it weren't for the "show" of opera. Even then, artistry is so subjective. Lang Lang is the perfect example to me. Certainly, one cannot deny his skill and flash as a pianist, but he has a total lack of "artistry" when it comes to performing Chopin.
Just because something is accessible to the mass audience does not mean that it has no value in terms of real artistry, just as something created within the category of the fine arts does not necessarily express real artistry.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
^^^^^
The Triumphal scene in Aida is definitely visual artistry with Verdi's score. Btw, Aida is not a favorite of mine, but I do not mind seeing it every ten years. I'm a Wagnerian fan, and I will be seeing The Flying Dutchman, the overture of which is stunning. I doubt a skater could handle it.

I hope that Tosca you see is the Zeffereli production. I was there on opening night booing with the crowd on the much touted revised one.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I know I remember people calling the short program the technical program. That is where you get short amount of time to demonstrate required elements. One after another. In the long program there is not so much pressure and lots use the time to build into their jumps. I just think PCS should be removed from the short program score.
That was the plan when they instituted the purpose of the sp, but the 'artisty' fans went for PC scores. Your suggestion is well taken.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Here is a little more info on the beginnings of the SP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_program_(figure_skating)

"Originally, the short program for singles had only 6 required elements (three jumps, two spins, and one step sequence). It was competed for the first time at Nebelhorn Trophy in late summer of 1972. A seventh element, the spin combination, was added to the short program the following season. Required deductions for failures on elements were not added until the 1975-1976 season. The eighth element (spiral sequence for ladies or second step sequence for men) was added in the 1988-89 season, when the time limit was set at 2 minutes 40 seconds. The short program was extended by an additional 10 seconds when the ISU Judging System was adopted to allow skaters more time to complete complex spins and step sequences.

It used to be that the required elements in the short program were more constrained than they are now. For example, at the 1988 Winter Olympics, both men and ladies were required to do a double flip as the jump out of steps, and include a double loop in the jump combination. The change to allow men to do a triple as the required axel jump and include a quadruple jump in the short program did not happen until the 1998-99 season."
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I think that if they made the skaters all do the same exact program, it would actually enable the judgement of artistry.

If you have different programs, then some skaters will attempt an artistically challenging program, like Mao's Bells, and some will attempt an easily sellable program, like Mirai's programs this season. But if you have the exact choreography and then tell the skaters to interpret the music using facial expression, finger tips, costume, so forth, then the judgement of facial expression, body expression, and other artistic aspects would be made possible, I think.

Sort of like all ballerinas do their Don Quixotes and Swan Lakes and when they do the same program, you can tell which one is better artistically (as well as technically).

I would love to see that. Maybe give the skaters two SP programs to choose from, and they have to perform it with their own interpretation.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
On second thought, you wouldn't even need to do the choreography. Just make the skaters skate to the same music, and watch how they interpret it. You could even allow for different music interpretation. Some might go for piano, some might go for orchestra version.

Or another way is to set the theme. Say that this season's SP must express 'sadnes' or 'joy' or 'universal love' or something appropriate, and then you could judge if their SP is appropriate to the set theme.
 
Last edited:

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
To be honest, to make the skaters choose from two choreographies that ISU has commissioned could potentially make figure skating develop a repetoire, just like ballet has a repetoire. It would add another dimension to figure skating. Then figure skating fans could talk about which was better, the 2020 Carmen SP choreographed by Lori Nichols versus the 2021 Scherazade SP choreographed by David Wilson, for example.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
It sounds like some people want a competition that's primarily about interpretation and artistry more than skating technique.

There might be a place for such a competition, but I don't think the short program with its required elements or the long program which is about each skater showing off his/her maximum technical skills is the place for it.

Maybe there needs to be a separate discipline in which skaters can compete for separate medals. One program where everyone does the same thing, more or less, and another where creativity is rewarded.

Or, as I suggested earlier, replace the short program with element competitions and a skating skill/interpretation competition, and then also have a well-balanced (long) program to determine the all-around champions.

If you want everyone to do the same program, with the same elements, then you need to choose elements that everyone should be expected to do, with only entries and variations that everyone should be expected to do. And you need to allow for skaters who spin and jump clockwise to perform the program in mirror image.

If you want skaters each to have the freedom to show their best elements of each kind and their best transitions and variations, then you can't have a set program that everyone does. At most you could specify a piece of music or kind of music, as in the Original Dance.

And if you want to compare how they each interpret a certain kind or piece of music, then make the focus of that performance on skating to the music, not on executing difficult jumps and spins.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I think that if they made the skaters all do the same exact program, it would actually enable the judgement of artistry.

If you have different programs, then some skaters will attempt an artistically challenging program, like Mao's Bells, and some will attempt an easily sellable program, like Mirai's programs this season. But if you have the exact choreography and then tell the skaters to interpret the music using facial expression, finger tips, costume, so forth, then the judgement of facial expression, body expression, and other artistic aspects would be made possible, I think.

Sort of like all ballerinas do their Don Quixotes and Swan Lakes and when they do the same program, you can tell which one is better artistically (as well as technically).

I would love to see that. Maybe give the skaters two SP programs to choose from, and they have to perform it with their own interpretation.
Well Iam not espousing justifying that as the pupose of the SP. I believe interpretation is part of PC scoring, which for an exclusive technical judgement, interpretation is not the way to go. We have enough fan judgemental as to costumes, music, and choreography for the LP where it belongs. However, your suggestion deserves merit but it would depend a lot on music since some ballerinas dance Don Q better than they do Odette/Odile.

I really would like to see a Technical Competition but I am so outnumbered on the board for the great artistry that is displayed more in high spirals than even in interpretation. The original purpose of the SP for Technical has given way to the elements of Pagaent Judging. JMO.


Here is a little more info on the beginnings of the SP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_program_(figure_skating)

"Originally, the short program for singles had only 6 required elements (three jumps, two spins, and one step sequence). It was competed for the first time at Nebelhorn Trophy in late summer of 1972. A seventh element, the spin combination, was added to the short program the following season. Required deductions for failures on elements were not added until the 1975-1976 season. The eighth element (spiral sequence for ladies or second step sequence for men) was added in the 1988-89 season, when the time limit was set at 2 minutes 40 seconds. The short program was extended by an additional 10 seconds when the ISU Judging System was adopted to allow skaters more time to complete complex spins and step sequences.

It used to be that the required elements in the short program were more constrained than they are now. For example, at the 1988 Winter Olympics, both men and ladies were required to do a double flip as the jump out of steps, and include a double loop in the jump combination. The change to allow men to do a triple as the required axel jump and include a quadruple jump in the short program did not happen until the 1998-99 season."
Ah, Wikipedia, the know all about everything.
And having to make the jumps easier is a test of great skill -no? Although it is another thread, I would like to allow skaters to do what's best for them. If they choose to take the easy route, so be it but there should be nothing in the way of music. It is a sporting competition and lets the frills be added in the LP. Why do I have to look at that same spirals in two separate competitions?:rolleye:
 
Top