It's Time to Change the Short Program | Golden Skate

It's Time to Change the Short Program

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
There really is a need to separate the Elements from the Artistry. At least the Quad complainers will have their day to prove they've worked hard on a particulary difficult element and were credited for it. That is if it is presented and executed by definition. Of course there would be other elements to consider who is the best in the Elements Category.
I would suggest 5 jump elements selected by the competitor with one combo included as well as 3 spins with 1 combo included. (not unlike Diving competition). A medal for the highest total score for the Element Contest would be awarded for the skater (not unlike Gynastics).

Holding on to these totals and on another day, have the Artistry judges for skating to music. While it will be judged by opinions and visual errors, the scores should name a winner and that skater will earn a medal for the best skated artistic program.

Alll the Elements scores and Artistry scores will be summed up for the overall winner and podium of the entire competition.

Would the above plan be wrong to eliminate one 'artisty comp' ?
 

Lilith11

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Artistry will always be subjective, no matter how you tweak the system. And as for having two winners and an overall winner, it's a bit... I don't know, but I'm uneasy w/it. The best skaters should be able to marry artistry AND the technical aspects of the program together :) It's not just about mastery over one aspect of figure skating; it's about having the overall package.
 

PROKOFIEV

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Besides all the elments mentioned by Joesitz, all the skaters must use the same music. What do you think?
 
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Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Unbelievably boring after the first two or three skaters. No one would watch. Bad idea.

Anyway, I don't understand the concept of artistry separated from technique. The whole point is to demonstrate artistry while executing a high order of tech difficulty, no? Artistry w/o tech difficulty = show skating and I can't see giving prizes for that. (Which is better, Shae Lynn making love to a chair or Plushy Sex Bomb?)

This proposal seems to be designed only for the KVDPs of skating and to be honest, he's a refrigerator break for me (although happily I caught the 4-3-3 this weekend!!).
 
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Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Certainly the SP has to be tweaked so it is no longer a mini-freeskate. The freeskate needed fewer required elements so it is less of a extended-short. I feel as though the emphasis should be on thr TES in the SP and the other way around in the free.. maybe with the TES scores multiplied by 1.5 or something for the short or something like that. There also have to be more penalties for missing a required element other than not getting the planned points. For example a skater who falls on the first jump on their combo and fails to tack on the combo to the next jumping pass should be penalized for the fall and for failing to complete a requirment. If the skater does tack on the combo to the next jumping pass, the triple out of steps they should be penalized for not completing the solo jump of out steps. While this seems harsh, it is the only way to make these elements trully "required." that said, the freeskate should be a lot more "free." no Zyack rules, no required step/ spiral sequences (if a guy wants to do a spiral sequence as opposed to steps that should be fine). I think the limit of jumping passes should be 7 and that limit on triples should be dropped.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
:confused:
Unbelievably boring after the first two or three skaters. No one would watch. Bad idea.

Anyway, I don't understand the concept of artistry separated from technique. The whole point is to demonstrate artistry while executing a high order of tech difficulty, no? Artistry w/o tech difficulty = show skating and I can't see giving prizes for that. (Which is better, Shae Lynn making love to a chair or Plushy Sex Bomb?)

This proposal seems to be designed only for the KVDPs of skating and to be honest, he's a refrigerator break for me (although happily I caught the 4-3-3 this weekend!!).
I disagree. The CoP with the exception of plus GoEs does account for the precision of the elements. Why do you bring up show skating? :confused:
If you know the history of figure skating, the SP and its huge amount of artistry :no: is relatively new and there was no SP as part of its beginnings. The SP was originally introduced as an element sector. Do you watch the early groups of competition?


Artistry will always be subjective, no matter how you tweak the system. And as for having two winners and an overall winner, it's a bit... I don't know, but I'm uneasy w/it. The best skaters should be able to marry artistry AND the technical aspects of the program together :) It's not just about mastery over one aspect of figure skating; it's about having the overall package.
Actually elements can be measured without artistry. There are definitions and procedures which are measureable by the eyes as long as they follow the definition. Artistry is the obscure form of judging, and it's all in the minds of the judges and the judging public.

Once in a while, I see a skater or a team with skating artistry. This season I would say Pan/Tong, and Virtue/Moir. but then I have outside interests which involves artistic pursuits and I don't rely on figure skating. Its just me getting some sport in.

There will be many fans watching an element contest if one were held, and I dare say there would be more than would show up for the early groups of figure skaters. I don't want to eliminate the artistry factor. It should be in the Free Skate.
 

Lilith11

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
:confused:

Actually elements can be measured without artistry. There are definitions and procedures which are measureable by the eyes as long as they follow the definition. Artistry is the obscure form of judging, and it's all in the minds of the judges and the judging public.

Certainly, but that's the technical part, yes? Artistry would refer to how the skater relates to the audience, how s/he expresses the song, how they connect, how moving s/he is, etc, etc. Which is subjective, as a skater can touch the heart of one and leave another completely cold. :)
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Certainly, but that's the technical part, yes? Artistry would refer to how the skater relates to the audience, how s/he expresses the song, how they connect, how moving s/he is, etc, etc. Which is subjective, as a skater can touch the heart of one and leave another completely cold. :)
That's my point. Artistry (I use the old term of Presentation) will definitely move some people as you say, but Technical is measureable whereas PC is all about opinions. Note the noun, Artistry is not in the book of rules. Did anyone relate to you from the last two groups at the recent Olys? Certainly not the first two groups.
 

aftertherain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
That's my point. Artistry (I use the old term of Presentation) will definitely move some people as you say, but Technical is measureable whereas PC is all about opinions. Note the noun, Artistry is not in the book of rules. Did anyone relate to you from the last two groups at the recent Olys? Certainly not the first two groups.

Some would argue that the technical elements of figure skating are also about opinions. That's what GOE is for, right? Unless you're not counting GOEs, but simply base values.

But I like watching short programs, so I don't know how your plan would work out with figure skating fans and casual viewers.
 

chrissy51

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 11, 2003
It could work, you could use the short program the way figures were used, not many people watched figures but they counted toward the total score. Let's judge the hard jumps and give these guys credit for having the guts to perform them.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
It could work, you could use the short program the way figures were used, not many people watched figures but they counted toward the total score. Let's judge the hard jumps and give these guys credit for having the guts to perform them.
Atter girl. An element phase in the competition would also have the skaters as nervous as in the miniskate and it could offer more elements to be judged. The Free Skate would basically remain the same except the factor for PC scores would double that of the elements. Fans will still watch TV if the Elements Segment is playing, and All would watch the PC Segment. No big deal and as you say it replaces the old School Figures Segment. also I think it would get more respect in the Athletes Community, but maybe less in the pagaent community.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I guess I am one of the few skating fans who like the short program OK the way it is.

There are two programs, the short and the long. They differ from one another in that the short program is a little shorter and the long program is a little longer. That's about it. (Except that possibly we should rename the long program and call it the technical program instead, since it typically contains more technical elements, at the expense of choreography and interpretation. In fact, the long program is almost too long -- it is hard to keep the attention of the audience through four and a half minutes of required jumps, spins and footwork.)

So why have two programs when one will do? I would say, for the same reason that the World Series is seven games instead of three. Fans like baseball.

To me, it is like a violin-playing contest in two parts. First you go out and play a sonata, then the next day you take on a concerto. Add up the scores for the overall winner.
 

CalebsMom

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
I guess I am one of the few skating fans who like the short program OK the way it is.

There are two programs, the short and the long. They differ from one another in that the short program is a little shorter and the long program is a little longer. That's about it. (Except that possibly we should rename the long program and call it the technical program instead, since it typically contains more technical elements, at the expense of choreography and interpretation. In fact, the long program is almost too long -- it is hard to keep the attention of the audience through four and a half minutes of required jumps, spins and footwork.)

So why have two programs when one will do? I would say, for the same reason that the World Series is seven games instead of three. Fans like baseball.

To me, it is like a violin-playing contest in two parts. First you go out and play a sonata, then the next day you take on a concerto. Add up the scores for the overall winner.


If I were you, I would rather put it this way - "I guess I am one of the few active posters of GS who like the short program OK the way it is" 'Cause I believe, there must be a number of figure skating fans (including myself) who feel the same way as you do about the short program.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
I guess I am one of the few skating fans who like the short program OK the way it is.

There are two programs, the short and the long. They differ from one another in that the short program is a little shorter and the long program is a little longer. That's about it. (Except that possibly we should rename the long program and call it the technical program instead, since it typically contains more technical elements, at the expense of choreography and interpretation. In fact, the long program is almost too long -- it is hard to keep the attention of the audience through four and a half minutes of required jumps, spins and footwork.)
I...agree with you. But maybe it's because it's much harder to put together a masterful LP?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
If I were you, I would rather put it this way - "I guess I am one of the few active posters of GS who like the short program OK the way it is" 'Cause I believe, there must be a number of figure skating fans (including myself) who feel the same way as you do about the short program.
I think the fans definitely like the SP the way it is. The artistry alone cries out to all the masses and it is comparable with the great works of ART.

Can anyone watch Verdi's Aida and see the real artistry without triple salchows? It will be on this week on PBS. Try it. I somehow think that artistry in figure skating only exists in the minds of fans who do not attend other sources of ART.:sheesh:

BTW - What is the difference between the SP and the LP? and how do you define artistry as opposed to presentation?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Then what's the problem?
If I were to answer that, I would be thrown off the Board,

Most fans see the SP as just another 'fix' for their lack of 'artistry' in their lives and with costumes, sequens and beads, and, of course, anything that reminds them of ballet which they never seen.

Others, like myself, don't want to lose sight of the SPORT and it should play an important role in the game. The SP could spell Sport. Maybe we could move Figure Skating to the Sport of Pagaents

But I understand the fixation of perceived artistry.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
That must be the answer, all us lowly plebs who only watch figure skating to get our fix of "art".

The only possible way figure skating could continue is if some high brow man, who fills his life with real art, tells us what we should and shouldn't think about skating, since he deigns to watch figure skating despite all of the other rich and high brow art in his life....
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Having seen ballet and figure skating I feel so embarrassed to admit ......that I prefer skating. :eek:
Maybe because I used to skate alot growing up but never took any ballet classes.

I also like the SP as it stands right now. I liked Mirai's "Pirates" and Yuna's "Bond Girl," and so many others.......

I think if there were to be a change I might wish for the LP to become a bit more free.

But this type of thinking is really based in 6.0 scoring philosophy.
The CoP is designed to give skaters points for elements and GOE for how they perform the elements.

It is still a relatively new system but the concept of a "free" skate has been changed as skaters have no choice but to try and score as many points as possible. This is where TR, CH and IN come into the equation. Some think they are becoming too important - but I think they must be emphasized and rewarded or skating will become too robotic.
 
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