Team Mao: potential plans

[rtureck]

The 7 minute video proves, none of Ito's jumps in height, distance, the flow going in and out compares to Yuna's Triple lutz triple toe or triple flip triple toe for that matter. Yuna's jumps cover half of the ice. No way in the world ITO would receive higher GOE than Yuna has received if she were to compete under current system. I'm responding to previous posting here. Don't take my word for it, commentators on CBC, NBC, BBC, much qualified than I have commented on Yuna's text book triple triple. And let's not even get into other aspects of Ito's skating vs. Yuna. Case closed but I don't expect to convince any posters, nor am I trying to.

The case of Ito's jumps get more ht and distance indeed is close Yuna's jumps do not cover half the ice ( I assume you mean half the ice rink). The only skater who covers half of the ice is Pang in a throw triple jump.

PS: If Yuna were competing under 6.0 system, she would have gotten as many if not more 6.0s than Kwan. Don't believe ITO ever achieved that in her day.

Are you sure? IIRC 6.0 system reward lady skaters with extensions, pointed toes, beautiful lines, in e.g. spirals a lot more than the current system. Anyway it is totally pointless to speculate how current skaters would have done in 6.0 system

[wallylutz]

PS: If Yuna were competing under 6.0 system, she would have gotten as many if not more 6.0s than Kwan. Don't believe ITO ever achieved that in her day.

Seriously, get your facts straight before you continue to make a fool of yourself. If those aren't 6.0s for Ito, then what I am seeing, huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKGasODrAcU#t=05m20s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2H6PfFr59M#t=5m58s

Even Michelle Kwan has never received 6.0 for Technical Merit in a World Championship.

Also, as great as Kim may be, she rarely ever skates clean. In the last three years, she managed a single clean LP in over a dozen competitions. Which also means she probably wouldn't have gotten any 6.0 for any of the skates that she made mistakes and therefore, unlikely to get any 6.0 at all for most of those competitions.

[wallylutz]

The 7 minute video proves, none of Ito's jumps in height, distance, the flow going in and out compares to Yuna's Triple lutz triple toe or triple flip triple toe for that matter. Yuna's jumps cover half of the ice.

Excessive exaggeration really hurts one's credibility:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFs2-Vc_qlI#t=0m57s

You mean this jump combo covers half of the ice??? The total distance in that combo can't be more than 1/15th of the length of the ice surface. How did you actually make 1/15 become 1/2? Don't get me wrong, I think Yu-Na has an excellent Triple Lutz + Triple Toe combo but this doesn't make her capable of walking on water, so let's please try to cut down on the hyperbole please.

Not that it matters since you are delusionaly convinced that Kim's 3Lz + 3T is the best ever, here is the same combo performed by what people called the ultimate jumping machine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjxDB62eqzM#t=0m49s

I think people can see for themselves the difference.


Also, Yu-Na's got many great qualities and probably one of the greatest champions ever but I am also convinced none of the TV stations commentators you cited ever called her the best jumper ever or that her jump combo is the best ever. More likely than not, they were saying her combo is the best in the competition since no other lady is doing a Triple Lutz + Triple Toe combo and very few even do Triple-Triple in 2010. But that doesn't give her the carte blanche of equivalency to some great champions in the past as far as jumps are concerned. I think you are smart enough to know there is quite a bit of difference between what they actually said and the way you misrepresented their statements to fit your twisted sense of the reality.

[aurora100]

Seriously, get your facts straight before you continue to make a fool of yourself. If those aren't 6.0s for Ito, then what I am seeing, huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKGasODrAcU#t=05m20s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2H6PfFr59M#t=5m58s

Even Michelle Kwan has never received 6.0 for Technical Merit in a World Championship.

Also, as great as Kim may be, she rarely ever skates clean. In the last three years, she managed a single clean LP in over a dozen competitions. Which also means she probably wouldn't have gotten any 6.0 for any of the skates that she made mistakes and therefore, unlikely to get any 6.0 at all for most of those competitions.

This is getting desperate. Can't find rolling of the eyes icon. Hard to argue Yuna couldn't get a row of 6.0s if we were under that system when she is holding all the world records and have been for the last two seasons. By the way, this post is not about Yuna or anti-Yuna. It's about how Mao is going to get back to the top of her game. Mao did two perfect performances at the 2010, and still managed to get 2nd place in both SP and LP. As long as she follows Ito's path, she will end up being another has been, with a triple axel, just as her idol Ito, who is only known to the die-hards.

[chloepoco]

This is getting desperate. Can't find rolling of the eyes icon. Hard to argue Yuna couldn't get a row of 6.0s if we were under that system when she is holding all the world records and have been for the last two seasons. By the way, this post is not about Yuna or anti-Yuna. It's about how Mao is going to get back to the top of her game. Mao did two perfect performances at the 2010, and still managed to get 2nd place in both SP and LP. As long as she follows Ito's path, she will end up being another has been, with a triple axel, just as her idol Ito, who is only known to the die-hards.

I'm sure that Ito is known to more than just the die-hards.

Most people will agree that Yuna is a wonderfully, gifted skater. There is no need to cut down other skaters to prop Yuna up. She stands on her own merits.

[FlattFan]

Ito is the best female skater ever, bar none!

[mylastduchess]

maybe she should train with Brian Boitano this summer

[dlgpffps]

maybe she should train with Brian Boitano this summer

Then it would be Battle of the Brians Part 2! That would be great
I'm so glad Mao's conscientiously forming a comprehensive coaching team around her. It would be pitiful for such natural talent to go to waste. What she has done up till now is great, but I think Mao has so much more to show us. I can't wait to see how she will have improved by Tokyo Worlds.

[sunny0760]

Also, Yu-Na's got many great qualities and probably one of the greatest champions ever but I am also convinced none of the TV stations commentators you cited ever called her the best jumper ever or that her jump combo is the best ever. More likely than not, they were saying her combo is the best in the competition since no other lady is doing a Triple Lutz + Triple Toe combo and very few even do Triple-Triple in 2010. But that doesn't give her the carte blanche of equivalency to some great champions in the past as far as jumps are concerned.

I respect your general opinion and as I am not an expert, your posts here and in INcrowd were very helpful to me to obtain general perspective. I don't know you mind my quoting your comments from INcrowd(if you do, let me know) but I will do because I was quite moved by your words. After seeing the Oly performances of female skaters, you wrote about Yuna.

Yu-Na Kim (wallylutz said)
Like Evan Lysacek, Kim was just a little cautious in her free skate but that's understandable. There is really not much to say about her that you don't already know except to add my admiration for how she handles herself under such stressful situation and unimaginable amount of expectations. She is a graceful lady and I think, a positive role model. As the highest paid athlete in the Vancouver Olympic, it would be difficult for her to be approachable but that's also understandable considering her super star status. Going forward, if she chooses to remain in this sport, I believe her biggest challenge would be to constantly re-invent herself and how she markets herself and preserve her marketability. Some of this is beyond the scope of Figure Skating but history will surely remember this amazing skater who changed the course of this sport most likely for the century to come and probably the identity of her home country in sports forever as well.

OK you seem to think Midori is the greatest female jumper in history. (I just wow at her 3As!)
Were all her jumps(combos) as great as her 3As? Didn't she have no weaknesses in the jumping area?
What kind jump that Yuna can do is the best and the closest to Midori's?
Yuna got even more scores (+2) with her first Triple combos in LP at Worlds than at olys. Do you agree with that?

[miki88]

This is getting desperate. Can't find rolling of the eyes icon. Hard to argue Yuna couldn't get a row of 6.0s if we were under that system when she is holding all the world records and have been for the last two seasons. By the way, this post is not about Yuna or anti-Yuna. It's about how Mao is going to get back to the top of her game. Mao did two perfect performances at the 2010, and still managed to get 2nd place in both SP and LP. As long as she follows Ito's path, she will end up being another has been, with a triple axel, just as her idol Ito, who is only known to the die-hards.

That's because the two systems are quite different. Under the 6.0 system, clean performances were very important. Clean performances are hard to come by these days, so I don't think skaters now would be getting a lot of 6.0s if they did compete under that system. I think most skating fans, if not all, know Midori Ito. Also, she is known as a legendary skater in Japan, so I think it's inaccurate to say that's she is a has-been.

[Bennett]

Midori Ito has been honored in the Hall of Fame.

[☆Genie]

To be honest, Midori is the queen at jumps. Her triple axel could have rivaled the men's and also her jumps had so much height and she had to slow down because of over-rotation.

[wallylutz]

I respect your general opinion and as I am not an expert, your posts here and in INcrowd were very helpful to me to obtain general perspective. I don't know you mind my quoting your comments from INcrowd(if you do, let me know) but I will do because I was quite moved by your words. After seeing the Oly performances of female skaters, you wrote about Yuna.

Yu-Na Kim (wallylutz said)
Like Evan Lysacek, Kim was just a little cautious in her free skate but that's understandable. There is really not much to say about her that you don't already know except to add my admiration for how she handles herself under such stressful situation and unimaginable amount of expectations. She is a graceful lady and I think, a positive role model. As the highest paid athlete in the Vancouver Olympic, it would be difficult for her to be approachable but that's also understandable considering her super star status. Going forward, if she chooses to remain in this sport, I believe her biggest challenge would be to constantly re-invent herself and how she markets herself and preserve her marketability. Some of this is beyond the scope of Figure Skating but history will surely remember this amazing skater who changed the course of this sport most likely for the century to come and probably the identity of her home country in sports forever as well.

OK you seem to think Midori is the greatest female jumper in history. (I just wow at her 3As!)
Were all her jumps(combos) as great as her 3As? Didn't she have no weaknesses in the jumping area?
What kind jump that Yuna can do is the best and the closest to Midori's?
Yuna got even more scores (+2) with her first Triple combos in LP at Worlds than at olys. Do you agree with that?

Thanks for bringing up this point, it serves to illustrate that you can have admiration for multiple skaters without having to diminish any of their accomplishments like some people seem to be so keen in doing. I don't mind you quoting me. Everything I said is public, feel free to quote me so long as you attribute it me correctly.

On Yu-Na, like I repeated it here again, I think she is perhaps one of the greatest Olympic Champions ever - it doesn't mean she has to be the best in anything or everything though. Some skaters excel in jumps, others, in spins and although individually, they may be considered the best in each of these categories, seldom do you see them winning the Olympic Gold or always on the podium. In that respect, Yu-Na Kim's track record is very impressive because she is so well-rounded and consistent, not because she is the best jumper or spinner. My intent was to argue a point of fact here.

Re: Midori Ito's jumps

<<Were all her jumps(combos) as great as her 3As? Didn't she have no weaknesses in the jumping area?>>

The answer is none. She doesn't have a weakness in any of her jumps. Some skaters have a preference for either the edge jumps or the toe jumps. Yu-Na Kim is a definite toe jumper because her edge jumps are quite mediocre given her inability to do a Triple Loop in competition and her Triple Salchow barely manages full rotation and often performed with sub-standard height. Of course, Yu-Na's inability to master the Triple Axel even in practice suggests that her strength is the toe jumps. Midori Ito on the other hand is one of the few skaters who do toe jumps as well as the edge jumps. Though with her unique jumping technique, her toe jumps tend to carry tremendous amount of distance whereas her edge jumps tend to carry enormous amount of height, see for instance this Triple Loop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hupxBUve6Q#t=2m42s

<<What kind jump that Yuna can do is the best and the closest to Midori's?>>

The closest element would be the Triple Lutz+Triple Toe combo as the only major difference is the height on those jumps. Yu-Na strength is her toe jumps so a combo that involves only toe jumps will showcase her strength.

This clip here showcased all 6 of Midori Ito's Triple jumps in competition. As you can see, there is no weakness whatsoever in any of the 6 different Triples. In addition, the flow in/out of her Triple-Triple is exceptional as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hupxBUve6Q

<<Yuna got even more scores (+2) with her first Triple combos in LP at Worlds than at olys. Do you agree with that?>>

I don't agree with that particular element in her Torino LP receiving +2. As you can recall from my scorecard of that event, I only gave her a +1. Let's review her element here one more time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFs2-Vc_qlI#t=0m57s

And now, let's take a look at the generally accepted six positive aspects considered for positive GOE by the ISU for jumps in Singles Skating:

1. unexpected / creative / difficult entry

Kim just stroked into the element in a plain vanilla fashion, this criterion is not met. This aspect is generally awarded if the skater's jump seemed to pop out of nowhere such as a jump performed immediately at the exit of a spin.

2. clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element

Kim didn't have any connecting steps or transition moves into this jump combo. It was just plain stroking. This criterion is not met. This aspect is generally awarded if the skater's jump is preceded by visually identifiable connecting steps, like a mini foot work sequence or when the skater performs recognizable transition / free skating moves such as Spread Eagle, Ina Bauer or even Hydro Blading. Here is an actual example of a Triple Lutz combo that meets this requirement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25C0bpdkOho#t=3m20s

Note, it doesn't have to be this complicate to fulfill this requirement. But this would be an obvious example of a skater doing difficult steps or transition into a Triple Lutz combo that would net him/her high GOE. What Patrick Chan does here is beyond what's required, which is why he often got himself killed by his own difficult steps.

3. varied position in the air / delay in rotation

This aspect was also absent in Kim's 3Lz+3T combo. The speed of her rotation is fairly consistent in both of her jumps, no delay in the air and on varied in air position. Typically, delay in rotation is rather rare, especially on a difficult Triple like the Lutz where achieving the full rotation is a major concern but this is more often observed in lesser difficult jumps. But this could have been fulfilled as in the following example here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irICtXQgJ-4#t=3m22s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irICtXQgJ-4#t=3m38s

Notice how Adam Rippon uses his hands, in first case, it's Tano Lutz (invented by former Olympic Champion, Brian Boitano). In the second case, it's the Rippon Lutz variation. Both of these would have fulfilled the varied in air position requirement as they add to the difficult of the Triple Lutz, very difficult to do.

4. great height and/or distance

This criterion is considered acceptably met. This jump combo did carry good distance and was well executed with sufficient height.

5. superior extension on landing / creative exit

In this particular case, this criterion is not considered to be met. Kim's free leg upon exiting the Triple toe did not carry a strong extension, instead her free leg was rather low, likely to provide balance. As a result, the flow on the exit and the overall landing of jump came across as more shaky than usual. Normally, Kim's 3Lz+3T combo carried a much stronger landing with strong extension on the landing but in this instance, she did not.

6. superior flow in and out (and in-between in jump combinations / sequences)

This criterion is considered met. The speed and flow into the jump and as well as between the two jumps were excellent. Though the flow on the landing of the 2nd jump is not as good as usual, on the balance, it tilts towards an overall superior execution when the entry, in-between and exit are considered as a whole.

Since she fulfilled only 2 of the 6 criteria, objectively, this element should only be given a +1.

[youtubo]

That's because the two systems are quite different. Under the 6.0 system, clean performances were very important. Clean performances are hard to come by these days, so I don't think skaters now would be getting a lot of 6.0s if they did compete under that system. I think most skating fans, if not all, know Midori Ito. Also, she is known as a legendary skater in Japan, so I think it's inaccurate to say that's she is a has-been.

To me, 2010 oly ladies were far cleaner than the past.

[jian10]

wally, you've done it again. I'm always impressed by your detailed explanation. You remind me of my mortgage guy.

If Yu Na reads this, she might not want to retire. By the way I believe Yu Na did a delayed Lutz at TEB earlier this season. I guess she decided to play it safe at the end.