Team Mao: potential plans

[prettykeys]

I read this thread title as "Team Mao: Political Plans" and freaked out. Hahah.

At least you read the thread topic.

Starting with Ren, the main skater of discussion seems to have veered off.

[Phoenix347]

Excessive exaggeration really hurts one's credibility:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFs2-Vc_qlI#t=0m57s

You mean this jump combo covers half of the ice??? The total distance in that combo can't be more than 1/15th of the length of the ice surface. How did you actually make 1/15 become 1/2? Don't get me wrong, I think Yu-Na has an excellent Triple Lutz + Triple Toe combo but this doesn't make her capable of walking on water, so let's please try to cut down on the hyperbole please.

Not that it matters since you are delusionaly convinced that Kim's 3Lz + 3T is the best ever, here is the same combo performed by what people called the ultimate jumping machine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjxDB62eqzM#t=0m49s

I think people can see for themselves the difference.


Also, Yu-Na's got many great qualities and probably one of the greatest champions ever but I am also convinced none of the TV stations commentators you cited ever called her the best jumper ever or that her jump combo is the best ever. More likely than not, they were saying her combo is the best in the competition since no other lady is doing a Triple Lutz + Triple Toe combo and very few even do Triple-Triple in 2010. But that doesn't give her the carte blanche of equivalency to some great champions in the past as far as jumps are concerned. I think you are smart enough to know there is quite a bit of difference between what they actually said and the way you misrepresented their statements to fit your twisted sense of the reality.

As far as jumping in ladies figure skating, no one rivaled Ito with the possible exception of Harding when she actually trained. However, I've never liked her leg wrap... I know you don't get points off for it but still not as as aesthetically pleasing.

With that said, you are correct that Kim has done well because she is/was an all-around skater, not because she was the best at jumping, spirals, spins or artistry. She has no crippling weakness (perhaps with the exception of her current lack of 3Lo in competition). However I do wonder why you said this:

history will surely remember this amazing skater who changed the course of this sport most likely for the century to come

How do you think she has changed the course of this sport for the century to come?

[Ren]

At least you read the thread topic.

Starting with Ren, the main skater of discussion seems to have veered off.

Sorry. In hindsight, I should have mentioned a different skater's team to compare with Mao's hypothetical one. I should have known mentioning Yu-Na's team in a Mao thread would prove foolhardy...

Edited to add: Hm, I suppose it wasn't really a comparison, more of citing an example of how a good team (main coach, specialists, choreographers) can bring about good results. And her team is the one I'm most familiar with...

[Figure88]

Thanks for bringing up this point, it serves to illustrate that you can have admiration for multiple skaters without having to diminish any of their accomplishments like some people seem to be so keen in doing. I don't mind you quoting me. Everything I said is public, feel free to quote me so long as you attribute it me correctly.

On Yu-Na, like I repeated it here again, I think she is perhaps one of the greatest Olympic Champions ever - it doesn't mean she has to be the best in anything or everything though. Some skaters excel in jumps, others, in spins and although individually, they may be considered the best in each of these categories, seldom do you see them winning the Olympic Gold or always on the podium. In that respect, Yu-Na Kim's track record is very impressive because she is so well-rounded and consistent, not because she is the best jumper or spinner. My intent was to argue a point of fact here.

Re: Midori Ito's jumps

<<Were all her jumps(combos) as great as her 3As? Didn't she have no weaknesses in the jumping area?>>

The answer is none. She doesn't have a weakness in any of her jumps. Some skaters have a preference for either the edge jumps or the toe jumps. Yu-Na Kim is a definite toe jumper because her edge jumps are quite mediocre given her inability to do a Triple Loop in competition and her Triple Salchow barely manages full rotation and often performed with sub-standard height. Of course, Yu-Na's inability to master the Triple Axel even in practice suggests that her strength is the toe jumps. Midori Ito on the other hand is one of the few skaters who do toe jumps as well as the edge jumps. Though with her unique jumping technique, her toe jumps tend to carry tremendous amount of distance whereas her edge jumps tend to carry enormous amount of height, see for instance this Triple Loop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hupxBUve6Q#t=2m42s

<<What kind jump that Yuna can do is the best and the closest to Midori's?>>

The closest element would be the Triple Lutz+Triple Toe combo as the only major difference is the height on those jumps. Yu-Na strength is her toe jumps so a combo that involves only toe jumps will showcase her strength.

This clip here showcased all 6 of Midori Ito's Triple jumps in competition. As you can see, there is no weakness whatsoever in any of the 6 different Triples. In addition, the flow in/out of her Triple-Triple is exceptional as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hupxBUve6Q

<<Yuna got even more scores (+2) with her first Triple combos in LP at Worlds than at olys. Do you agree with that?>>

I don't agree with that particular element in her Torino LP receiving +2. As you can recall from my scorecard of that event, I only gave her a +1. Let's review her element here one more time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFs2-Vc_qlI#t=0m57s

And now, let's take a look at the generally accepted six positive aspects considered for positive GOE by the ISU for jumps in Singles Skating:

1. unexpected / creative / difficult entry

Kim just stroked into the element in a plain vanilla fashion, this criterion is not met. This aspect is generally awarded if the skater's jump seemed to pop out of nowhere such as a jump performed immediately at the exit of a spin.

2. clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element

Kim didn't have any connecting steps or transition moves into this jump combo. It was just plain stroking. This criterion is not met. This aspect is generally awarded if the skater's jump is preceded by visually identifiable connecting steps, like a mini foot work sequence or when the skater performs recognizable transition / free skating moves such as Spread Eagle, Ina Bauer or even Hydro Blading. Here is an actual example of a Triple Lutz combo that meets this requirement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25C0bpdkOho#t=3m20s

Note, it doesn't have to be this complicate to fulfill this requirement. But this would be an obvious example of a skater doing difficult steps or transition into a Triple Lutz combo that would net him/her high GOE. What Patrick Chan does here is beyond what's required, which is why he often got himself killed by his own difficult steps.

3. varied position in the air / delay in rotation

This aspect was also absent in Kim's 3Lz+3T combo. The speed of her rotation is fairly consistent in both of her jumps, no delay in the air and on varied in air position. Typically, delay in rotation is rather rare, especially on a difficult Triple like the Lutz where achieving the full rotation is a major concern but this is more often observed in lesser difficult jumps. But this could have been fulfilled as in the following example here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irICtXQgJ-4#t=3m22s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irICtXQgJ-4#t=3m38s

Notice how Adam Rippon uses his hands, in first case, it's Tano Lutz (invented by former Olympic Champion, Brian Boitano). In the second case, it's the Rippon Lutz variation. Both of these would have fulfilled the varied in air position requirement as they add to the difficult of the Triple Lutz, very difficult to do.

4. great height and/or distance

This criterion is considered acceptably met. This jump combo did carry good distance and was well executed with sufficient height.

5. superior extension on landing / creative exit

In this particular case, this criterion is not considered to be met. Kim's free leg upon exiting the Triple toe did not carry a strong extension, instead her free leg was rather low, likely to provide balance. As a result, the flow on the exit and the overall landing of jump came across as more shaky than usual. Normally, Kim's 3Lz+3T combo carried a much stronger landing with strong extension on the landing but in this instance, she did not.

6. superior flow in and out (and in-between in jump combinations / sequences)

This criterion is considered met. The speed and flow into the jump and as well as between the two jumps were excellent. Though the flow on the landing of the 2nd jump is not as good as usual, on the balance, it tilts towards an overall superior execution when the entry, in-between and exit are considered as a whole.

Since she fulfilled only 2 of the 6 criteria, objectively, this element should only be given a +1.

I agree, Yuna performed much better 3L-3T combo in her previous competitions. However, there were other ladies that night who received higher GOE's for jumps that were clearly not any better the ones that Yuna performed. So, I thought Yuna's jumps were undermarked, considering her jumps were of better quality than any of the ladies at Torino.

It's also kind of telling that other than Ito you used only clips of men. Why not any women? Men obviously are better jumpers than women. If Yuna's peers are only men, I think it says a lot about the quality of Yuna's jumps.


ETA: Oops, I checked the protocols. Yuna did receive 2.2 GOE for the 3-3 combo, and deservedly so. Yet, I'm still perplexed as to why you would score her a +1 for her combo since in comparison to the other ladies, Yuna's jumps were superior.

More likely than not, they were saying her combo is the best in the competition since no other lady is doing a Triple Lutz + Triple Toe combo and very few even do Triple-Triple in 2010.

Nope. A lot of people make a huge fuss over Yuna's 3-3. It was even featured in NYT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Iyxh2QYjfw

[wallylutz]

At least you read the thread topic.

Starting with Ren, the main skater of discussion seems to have veered off.

Sorry about hijacking this thread.

I think many Japanese people struggle when they have to adapt to live in a foreign country and Mao Asada is one of them. It's more than just a question of language, which is obviously an issue but it's more than that. That said, a few Japanese also thrived on not having to deal with the high pressure lifestyle in Japan and are eager to live overseas, I know one such guy who lives here in Seattle, even if it means leaving his wife and daughter back home in Japan and only see them maybe once a year for a few days.

Team Mao's plan of building a coaching team in Japan is not a bad idea in principle. Personaly, I think Mao should leave Japan for training but I can also understand why she doesn't want to. Given this constraint, the question to be asked is whether Mao Asada can assemble a team that can address the various issues that she needs to tackle urgently. There are many aspects of her skating that she needs to either correct or improve, ranging from her inability to do some jumps to the gaps in her choreography and suitability of her interpretation. Can all these questions be addressed with a coaching team in Japan? Some people pointed to her recent win in Torino as the proof that everything seems to be on track. I think not. The fact is she won the Worlds with 2 major downgrades, one in SP and LP each + one major competitior was absent and the other, had a melt down. Don't count on this to happen again. Not to mention, there are quite a few other women not far behind and eager to move up, including some we haven't yet seen in the Senior rank yet. 4 years is a long time. In 4 years, it is quite likely that Kim and Rochette won't be her only competitors, assuming they haven't retired by then. The challenge may be a lot closer than she can envision at this time. Hence, the success of such arrangement cannot be accurately measured simply by her recent win over Kim, that would be short-sighted way to look at this given that her ultimate goal is an Olympic Gold medal in 4 years. We will know soon enough whether such arrangement works by looking at the various issues that Asada needs to work. If she improves, we'll notice her overall score potential will go up as well. Otherwise, she will continue to be a distant 2nd or 3rd to Yu-Na Kim.

[wallylutz]

How do you think she has changed the course of this sport for the century to come?

Love to answer your question, if you don't mind, please ask me in the appropriate thread in question to avoid any further off-topic posting.

[miki88]

I think Mao is aware that she has issues in her skating that needs to be addressed, despite her recent win. She has stated that she wants someone to help her technically and also that she wants a change in her programs next season. So it seems that people around her (such as Kozuka's father) are giving her the advice that she needs now. Hopefully, her new coaching arrangement works but I think the changes may be more gradual than we expect.

[wallylutz]

I agree, Yuna performed much better 3L-3T combo in her previous competitions. However, there were other ladies that night who received higher GOE's for jumps that were clearly not any better the ones that Yuna performed. So, I thought Yuna's jumps were undermarked, considering her jumps were of better quality than any of the ladies at Torino.

So you agree I wasn't just making up my observation then. Her combo that night was slightly inferior to her normal self, hence the normal +2 becomes a +1 instead. What further explanation do you require? You already acknowledged it wasn't as good as usual so why you are complaining that I underscored her since there is clearly a reason that even you agree for such justification? As for comparison with other girls, sorry, the rules make it explicit clear that the marking of GOE needs not to be compared with how other competitors are doing and it would also be highly unusual to do a relative comparison of GOE across different competitors since there would way too many elements to keep track of. In the SP, there are roughly 50 skaters in Torino, times 8 elements - maybe a superman can keep track of all 400 elements performed in addition having to worry about 5 PCS components times another 50. Each skater's element is assessed based on their own merit. I also think it's inherently flawed to try to qualify Yu-Na's jumps as being the best or not the best. She is not an exceptional jumper and sometimes, her jumps will be better than other girls, sometimes they won't, like when she went splat on the ice on her Salchow - not only she fell, as someone pointed out also, she was lucky not to get a downgrade on that as well.

It's also kind of telling that other than Ito you used only clips of men. Why not any women? Men obviously are better jumpers than women. If Yuna's peers are only men, I think it says a lot about the quality of Yuna's jumps.

I could have used other clips from women. Those are the examples that I can immediately think of and actually available on youtube. Besides, the point of using Chan and Rippon was to show the non-jumping aspects affecting GOE that accompany the jumps. Typically, women don't do a whole a lot of transition into their Lutz jumps because it tends to be their hardest jump so they are more cautious about it. Yu-Na's edge jumps still need a lot of work, for one thing, the Triple Loop has been absent for quite a while now. For another, that Salchow, she seems to miss it quite often, in fact in two World Championships, 09 and 10, she missed them both times. I think before anyone tries to claim her being comparable to men in jumps, let's try to get her to land those securely again first or have 7 Triples in her LP as opposed to having to rely on three Double Axels in her LP, gaming the rule to the max.

ETA: Oops, I checked the protocols. Yuna did receive 2.2 GOE for the 3-3 combo, and deservedly so. Yet, I'm still perplexed as to why you would score her a +1 for her combo since in comparison to the other ladies, Yuna's jumps were superior.

I can understand the +2s, criterion re: extension on landing may or may not be obvious to the judges depending their angle. I believe she landed her jumps facing the judges whereas the camera actually sat behind Yu-Na when she did that jump. The judges may not have an as clear view of her back and thus, her free leg extension, as we viewers do. The difference between +2 and +1 in this case literaly hinges on whether that criterion is fulfilled or not since if she meets 3 out of the 6 requirements, a +2 would have been awarded. In my assessment, I felt the fact she under-performed in that element and the fact there was no difficult transitions that accompanied that element, she would have to be absolutely clean and flawless to be awarded a +2. Since the landing wasn't entirely solid, a +1 is more appropriate. Again, no comparison was made against other girls, you need to quit doing that, it's not a good idea. Imagine if we have to compare every girls' jumps to Midori Ito, then none of them would ever receive positive GOE! As for the few +3, those are unjustifiable in my view especially given the fact that element was performed below her normal standard. Then again, it's very easy to carry away by the emotions and adrenaline of a major competition like that, we are all humans, mistakes can happen.

Nope. A lot of people make a huge fuss over Yuna's 3-3. It was even featured in NYT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Iyxh2QYjfw

Huh? Where did anyone claim her jump to be the best in the world? There is no logic in what you posted. It was talked about NYT, so what?

[☆Genie]

Then how do you explain her scores then wally? Do you really think that the judges are so oblivious to YuNa's medicore jumps? Besides, it's a known fact that she would have killed in the men's competition with her scores. She would have won and your saying she is medicore.

[aftertherain]

I love how every thread that talks about a female skater on this forum turns into a YUNA thread.

Seriously folks, can't you give it a rest?

[☆Genie]

I love how every thread that talks about a female skater on this forum turns into a YUNA thread.

Seriously folks, can't you give it a rest?

Tell that to wallylutz, he had to talk about how YuNa doens't deserve her marks. It was obvious she was miles ahead of the field in Vancouver.

[wallylutz]

I love how every thread that talks about a female skater on this forum turns into a YUNA thread.

Seriously folks, can't you give it a rest?

Good reminder, and I especially don't enjoy having my words twisted and completely misrepresented by bots who are either unwilling or incapable of reasoning or comprehension at all. It's impossible to have a discussion with them so I will cease now.

[hurrah]

Tell that to wallylutz, he had to talk about how YuNa doens't deserve her marks. It was obvious she was miles ahead of the field in Vancouver.

I thought Yuna was ahead of everyone else at Vancouver, but not as ahead as the scores suggested. I'm not sure that this is a terribly controversial view, just as it is not controversial at all to recognize that Mao's main issue is her jumps.

I kind of agree that it might take a while for Mao to fully revise her jump technique, because I think Team Mao is basically going to try and do this with a Japanese team. I remember Honda Takeshi had great jump technique, just as Dai now has a great technique. I love Dai's toe pick. He actually hardly has one, he just sort of lightly places his pick on the ice and then floats high up into the air. I'd love for some of that to rub off on Mao!

But having the ability to do a jump well is totally different from being able to teach it, and so teaching Mao the technique will probably have to entail an element of trial and error in the training process. But I think they have excellent examples to emulate, people who are able to analyze the jumps with high-tech equipment and scientific knowledge, as well as Mao, who has the talent and perseverance to master it.

[Tinymavy15]

Then how do you explain her scores then wally? Do you really think that the judges are so oblivious to YuNa's medicore jumps? Besides, it's a known fact that she would have killed in the men's competition with her scores. She would have won and your saying she is medicore.

She would not have "killed" in the Men's event. With her scores at the olympics she would have been ninth.

[chloepoco]

Then how do you explain her scores then wally? Do you really think that the judges are so oblivious to YuNa's medicore jumps? Besides, it's a known fact that she would have killed in the men's competition with her scores. She would have won and your saying she is medicore.

OMG, give it a rest already!