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Thread: Team Mao: potential plans

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren View Post
    Sorry. In hindsight, I should have mentioned a different skater's team to compare with Mao's hypothetical one. I should have known mentioning Yu-Na's team in a Mao thread would prove foolhardy...

    Edited to add: Hm, I suppose it wasn't really a comparison, more of citing an example of how a good team (main coach, specialists, choreographers) can bring about good results. And her team is the one I'm most familiar with...
    Oh Ren, my friend, what have you done

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    She would not have "killed" in the Men's event. With her scores at the olympics she would have been ninth.
    which is a decent result, but seriously,it is not enough that Yuna won the ladies event, now she has to win the mens too? I do not see the need to try and stretch Yuna's accomplishment at the Olympics to make it better than anything that has ever happened to figure skating. She is great in her own right and has just delivered a dream Olympics performance. Why not just simply enjoy it for what it is? Comparing her to other skaters without ackowledging those skaters' qualities is not only an injustice to them, but to Yuna herself! Every skater has their strong and not-so-strong areas and it comes down to who can perform close to their potential on D-night. She did! Let's be happy for that instead of putting her up on such a high pedestal that she might end up falling and breaking her spirit in the process (this is not directed at you Tinymavy15)

    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    OMG, give it a rest already!


    And now back to our regular programming

    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I think Mao is aware that she has issues in her skating that needs to be addressed, despite her recent win. She has stated that she wants someone to help her technically and also that she wants a change in her programs next season. So it seems that people around her (such as Kozuka's father) are giving her the advice that she needs now. Hopefully, her new coaching arrangement works but I think the changes may be more gradual than we expect.
    Totally agree! I am sensing a great shift in Mao's approach and I expect much improvement next year. Go Mao, you can do it

    .. and now I guess I should head off to the Yuna thread to learn all about Mao!
    Last edited by yunasashafan; 04-05-2010 at 11:24 PM.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    so you agree i wasn't just making up my observation then. Her combo that night was slightly inferior to her normal self, hence the normal +2 becomes a +1 instead. What further explanation do you require? You already acknowledged it wasn't as good as usual so why you are complaining that i underscored her since there is clearly a reason that even you agree for such justification? as for comparison with other girls, sorry, the rules make it explicit clear that the marking of goe needs not to be compared with how other competitors are doing and it would also be highly unusual to do a relative comparison of goe across different competitors since there would way too many elements to keep track of. in the sp, there are roughly 50 skaters in torino, times 8 elements - maybe a superman can keep track of all 400 elements performed in addition having to worry about 5 pcs components times another 50. Each skater's element is assessed based on their own merit. I also think it's inherently flawed to try to qualify yu-na's jumps as being the best or not the best. She is not an exceptional jumper and sometimes, her jumps will be better than other girls, sometimes they won't, like when she went splat on the ice on her salchow - not only she fell, as someone pointed out also, she was lucky not to get a downgrade on that as well.

    I could have used other clips from women. Those are the examples that i can immediately think of and actually available on youtube. Besides, the point of using chan and rippon was to show the non-jumping aspects affecting goe that accompany the jumps. Typically, women don't do a whole a lot of transition into their lutz jumps because it tends to be their hardest jump so they are more cautious about it. Yu-na's edge jumps still need a lot of work, for one thing, the triple loop has been absent for quite a while now. For another, that salchow, she seems to miss it quite often, in fact in two world championships, 09 and 10, she missed them both times. i think before anyone tries to claim her being comparable to men in jumps, let's try to get her to land those securely again first or have 7 triples in her lp as opposed to having to rely on three double axels in her lp, gaming the rule to the max.

    I can understand the +2s, criterion re: Extension on landing may or may not be obvious to the judges depending their angle. I believe she landed her jumps facing the judges whereas the camera actually sat behind yu-na when she did that jump. the judges may not have an as clear view of her back and thus, her free leg extension, as we viewers do. the difference between +2 and +1 in this case literaly hinges on whether that criterion is fulfilled or not since if she meets 3 out of the 6 requirements, a +2 would have been awarded. in my assessment, i felt the fact she under-performed in that element and the fact there was no difficult transitions that accompanied that element, she would have to be absolutely clean and flawless to be awarded a +2. Since the landing wasn't entirely solid, a +1 is more appropriate. Again, no comparison was made against other girls, you need to quit doing that, it's not a good idea. Imagine if we have to compare every girls' jumps to midori ito, then none of them would ever receive positive goe! As for the few +3, those are unjustifiable in my view especially given the fact that element was performed below her normal standard. Then again, it's very easy to carry away by the emotions and adrenaline of a major competition like that, we are all humans, mistakes can happen.huh? where did anyone claim her jump to be the best in the world? There is no logic in what you posted. It was talked about nyt, so what?
    1. (huh? So in same competition one skater gets +1 in goe and another gets +2 in goe, no comparison can be made? Isn't that what scoring is all about? I don't know, when i get 90% in exams and class average is 80% i know i am 10% above the average! Oh yes i get your point, judges are not allowed to compare skaters, just give them different scores).

    2. (so, men dont miss jumps and make mistakes? A woman can't be compared to men unless you are a perfect woman? Yes, this sounds like an warped science or a real poor theory and disagreeable opinion at the least).

    3. (hmmm, no difficult transition..... Yes, you can get 18 points higher - than your next competitor at the olympics without difficult transition or anything special ..... Hmmm, i am listening to an expert here.....not)

    4. (oh yes, ny times just picks any jane off the street to do a clip on figure skating jumps........ Nothing special there...hmmmm).
    Last edited by aurora100; 04-05-2010 at 11:45 PM.

  3. #78
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    Are we all discussing about Mao's future plan??
    I hope Mao sticks with her triple axel like she had done for two years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by youtubo View Post
    Are we all discussing about Mao's future plan??
    I hope Mao sticks with her triple axel like she had done for two years.
    At the press conference after LP, Mao said that she "can do 3A easily" so I'm guessing she'll keep it in her programs. I don't know who's going to be her coach, but I don't think keeping Tarasova as her choreographer is such a good idea. For the past 2 seasons I don't think her choreo has been successful. I hope this time she has learned what she needs, not just what she wants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yunasashafan View Post

    .. and now I guess I should head off to the Yuna thread to learn all about Mao!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jian10 View Post
    At the press conference after LP, Mao said that she "can do 3A easily" so I'm guessing she'll keep it in her programs.
    I sincerely hope something was lost in the translation there because her track record on the 3A doesn't support her confident statement. 3A is not easy, not even for men. For a female skater whose 3A has to be scrutnized left, right and center everytime she does it - I think Mao's attitude needs a fix too, besides everything else. This is why getting a right coaching team is critical for her at this point. When Frank Carroll first agreed to coach Mirai Nagasu, he encountered similar attitude problem from Nagasu as well. I think Mao has been without a permanent and consistent coach up close for quite some time that she is letting her teenager exuberance getting a little out of control. Sorry, that statement really bothers me, maybe it was just a poor translation because that's not the kind of attitude that will bring about the changes she needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I sincerely hope something was lost in the translation there because her track record on the 3A doesn't support her confident statement. 3A is not easy, not even for men. For a female skater whose 3A has to be scrutnized left, right and center everytime she does it - I think Mao's attitude needs a fix too, besides everything else. This is why getting a right coaching team is critical for her at this point. When Frank Carroll first agreed to coach Mirai Nagasu, he encountered similar attitude problem from Nagasu as well. I think Mao has been without a permanent and consistent coach up close for quite some time that she is letting her teenager exuberance getting a little out of control. Sorry, that statement really bothers me, maybe it was just a poor translation because that's not the kind of attitude that will bring about the changes she needs.
    It could be just Mao trying to show more confidence. That's why I said I hope she learned what she needs this time. I thought she and Tarasova would realize the problems in 2008-2009 season. Unfortunately this Olympic season was more like an extension of the past without much improvement, IMHO. I don't know who's going to be her coach, but I think Mao needs to be humble and be ready to start from the beginning. When student is lack of basic skill, she can't go far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yunasashafan View Post
    Oh Ren, my friend, what have you done
    Well, I was merely replying to sunny0760's post: "Each of the coaches, as an expert of specific part, should be the best coach available in Japan and the most responsible head coach always sticks to Mao coordinating everything, leading other coaches. This seems to the grand plan. Like all the national support toward a single skater. Can you find another example in history? Would be work?"

    My mistake was citing the example of Mao's Korean contemporary, because I thought the way her coaching situation was set up in Canada (main coach overseeing the specialists and choreographer) brought good results due to cohesive team work, and this was something I thought might be ideal for Mao, too--only, the coaching team would be situated in Japan, of course. I cited that particular example because it was the one most familiar to me--and thus I unwittingly set off other people. I didn't think it would go so off-tangent, but I really should have known better that when it comes to these two ladies, it's like this: :banging:

    Anyway, moving on. I wonder who would be a good technical coach for Mao. Is it true that Nagakubo helped her out during 4CCs? I want Nagakubo-san to concentrate mostly on Akiko, though. Some people have also cited Takeshi Honda, others Nobuo Sato. How feasible would it be for them to coach her full-time/devote a lot of time to her? I mean, I'm clueless about their locations, in the sense that, are they situated at/near Mao's rink?

    Also, our experts on this board, how hard (or easy) might it be for her to fix the issues with her jumps, which Kozuka's dad has pointed out?
    Last edited by Ren; 04-06-2010 at 01:41 AM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by jian10 View Post
    It could be just Mao trying to show more confidence. That's why I said I hope she learned what she needs this time. I thought she and Tarasova would realize the problems in 2008-2009 season. Unfortunately this Olympic season was more like an extension of the past without much improvement, IMHO. I don't know who's going to be her coach, but I think Mao needs to be humble and be ready to start from the beginning. When student is lack of basic skill, she can't go far.
    Mao's waaayy humble. And she does NOT lack basic skills.

    What she most seriously lacks is a mastery of some jump techniques.

    And actually, it's not like her jump technique is all that bad, even for an elite figure skater. She got a silver medal at Olympics and gold medal at Worlds! That's not the track record of someone with a serious defect.

    When her fans talk of Mao's jump issues, they're talking from the perspective of, what does Mao need to improve to be acknowledged as one of the best, if not THE greatest figure skater to have ever lived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jian10 View Post
    At the press conference after LP, Mao said that she "can do 3A easily" so I'm guessing she'll keep it in her programs. I don't know who's going to be her coach, but I don't think keeping Tarasova as her choreographer is such a good idea. For the past 2 seasons I don't think her choreo has been successful. I hope this time she has learned what she needs, not just what she wants.
    I think she can master it if she continues to work for another 2-3 years. "Just do It"

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren View Post
    Also, our experts on this board, how hard (or easy) might it be for her to fix the issues with her jumps, which Kozuka's dad has pointed out?
    I'm no expert, but I'll give my two cents. Speed is extremely difficult to improve on. You either have it or don't. I don't have an elaborate explanation, but I know this for sure (I've heard it from experts here and there). Mao's not slow, mind you, but she is slow in comparison to Miki, Yu-na or Caro K, for example, and given that speed is a key factor in determining GOE, she does need to speed up. Her problem in getting GOE is that she kind of comes to a standstill right before the jump (her 3A and 3T in particular). She kind of stops. Leeps high into the air and revolves very, very quickly, thus missing out on the speed and ice coverage GOE checkpoints. I don't know why this is in Mao's case, but I've heard it has to do with the fear of falling for other skaters. If that's the case, I'm pretty sure a determined Mao could fix that. Some skaters are too fast (Caro K) and mess up with jumps because of timing or OR. Some skaters are too slow and thus use weird technique or UR. Mao needs to lean towards the fast, but of course this requires near perfect technique (easier to mess up with speed) and greater control.

    Some things I've noticed about her jumping: (1) When she jumps the 3A, she turns backward first, goes sideways, then turns forward, while she jumps straight into the 2A. There's nothing wrong with the former, but I'm pretty sure that's one thing that slows her down. I know the 3A is a very daunting move exactly because one must jump forwards, but if she wants her 3A to be more GOE-friendly, that's a way. It will help her translate the torque from the preparation to the jump. (2) Before she does the 3F, she bends her knee, does something funny with her other leg, which probably doesn't help her speed up. I haven't seen her do that until recently (maybe from 2008-2009), so I'm guessing she can fix it. It's a minor technicality. (3) Photos of her taken show her face distorted to the side. That seems to suggest that her torque is centered there, when it should start at the foot, spread to the ankles and the entire body, to kind of center at the shoulders. Her air position may affect her jumping technique, definitely. Perhaps her coaches should look into that. (4) Her 3Lo is gorgeous! I actually like it more than her 3A.

    And now to her flutz. Her 3lz was getting there by Worlds. I don't know why Mao took it out. Mao should've battled it out like she did with her 3A (which consistency and quality-wise was awful earlier on this season, but emerged gorgeous in the end). Miki and Joannie battled with their flutz during their competitive seasons (it usually takes a whole year) and got it right in the end (but it was costly). Fixing a flutz is extremely difficult, as it's a habit often from childhood, engrained by muscle memory. By the time one gets close to fixing the lutz, one often messes up on the flip, so on and so forth. It's a great risk, but one Mao should probably take if she aims for Sochi '14. If she starts now, she could get it fixed by Tokyo Worlds.

    As for the 3-3. Mao said she will work on it. She took it out probably because she was hit with UR here and there. She was working with the 3F-3Lo in 08-09. Next season, she should start with a 3F-3T, which is less prone to UR calls. A 3Lo combo is very risky and very, very prone to UR, like everyone knows here. She should work on the 3F-3T, get it ratified several times and boost her confidence before tacking on a 3Lo. I wonder why she URed her combination so often in 08-09. Is it because of the strict calls or because her technique changed? I'm not sure. I'm awful at UR calls.

    A great thing though is that Mao is getting much, much better in terms of consistency (good showings at Nationals, 4CC, OG and WC in a row) and in dealing with her nerves. I was worried she would implode right after Yu-na's LP at the OG because she has a history of meltdowns, but she didn't! It was great. What's also great is that she has learned from a disappointing season (for her) and will return to light music and 3-3s (in addition to her 3A).

    Wow I wrote so much
    Last edited by dlgpffps; 04-06-2010 at 03:04 AM.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Mao's waaayy humble. And she does NOT lack basic skills.
    Mao's basic skating skills are great. Who hasn't commented on how she floats on the ice? I think people just think her basic skating skills have deteriorated because her current music fails to highlight her strengths. One thing I find weird is that Mao doesn't seem to have strong knees, in spite of her having soft knees (the two usually go together). I have seen her try an ina bauer during an ice show performance and it was, well, not up to her usual level. She couldn't keep control of her blades. I've never seen her try a layback, although she has great flexibility. If there is a flaw to her skating skills, I guess it would then have to do with blade control, but really that's not much. Her skating skills are above many skaters'. But boy, I sound mean today. I hope no one will try to kill me because I mean all this as constructive criticism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
    I mean all this as constructive criticism.
    definitely!

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    dlgpffps, I won't quote your whole post, because you did write a lot. But thanks so much for your 2 cents, and for explaining things so thoroughly. So Mao's flutz has been there from when she was young? Wow... I hope her would-be tech coach will be able to help her fix it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren View Post
    dlgpffps, I won't quote your whole post, because you did write a lot. But thanks so much for your 2 cents, and for explaining things so thoroughly. So Mao's flutz has been there from when she was young? Wow... I hope her would-be tech coach will be able to help her fix it.
    You're welcome. I've noticed that Yamada's students tend to flutz. Could it be her teaching method? I'm not sure. You know, I changed my ten cents to two cents immediately after having read your post. My mind was preoccupied with jump technique that I wasn't really thinking while writing

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