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Thread: Hypothetically, how would past great skaters like Michelle fare in today's system?

  1. #16
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Probably, but will she get marked down in the artistic components? But I can imagine her having a big lead in the TES. Imagine combining Michelle's artistic abilities and Ito's athletic prowess, wow that could be the ultimate ladies skater.
    To be honest, I don't think the berating Midori Ito got over her "lack of artistry" was fair; it's just that some of her contemporaries like Katarina Witt and Kristi Yamaguchi were more appealing. Midori isn't that hard on the eyes to watch; there's nothing about her skating that is bothersome or ugly--compare that to someone like (sigh, I know this one gets targeted so much) Rachael Flatt. Midori Ito could be graceful and joyful, even if she didn't have as much charisma as some of her rivals.

    ETA: I feel bad even comparing the two, above. Maybe a better example is Carolina Kostner, who is a lovely skater, but there is something awkward about her. I prefer Midori's presentation over hers.
    Last edited by prettykeys; 04-03-2010 at 12:08 PM.

  2. #17
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Probably, but will she get marked down in the artistic components? But I can imagine her having a big lead in the TES. Imagine combining Michelle's artistic abilities and Ito's athletic prowess, wow that could be the ultimate ladies skater.
    There is more to TES than jumps. And I seriously doubt if Midori's leg-wrapped jumps would get more GOE than Yuna (or other good jumpers - hello.....think Yukari)

    Mirai would absolutely massacre Midori on spins and spirals - probably enough to offset Midori's bigger jumps. Laura would be competitive against Midori's jumps just by having such superior posture, positions, IN, CH and overall artistry.

    Let's use our brains here and think through this
    Midori was incredible at ONE aspect of skating. That's all - and it helps explain why Kati was the 1988 OC and why Kristi was the 1992 OC.

    If skating was more like "barrel jumping" nobody could have beaten Midori.
    Fortunately - other aspects of skating count - posture, positions, IN, CH, PE, etc,

    The biggest fallacy many fans make is to think that 6.0 and CoP are so radically different.
    The skating style may have changed - but the core values are basically the same.

    Unless we could have a new Midori - one who was not awful at the figures - and then after the figures were elimated - a Midori who could deliver her big tricks UNDER PRESSUE - we would have the same results.

  3. #18
    Mashimaro on Ice
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    Wow. Didn't imagine the responses. Janetfan, the reason I think Midori may have the edge in TES is because she is capable of doing everything technically (all the triples, 3-3, and the 3A), and her jumps have height, distance, and great flow. I don't think you can compare that to Yukari's jumps even if they both have leg-wraps. I mean Yukari's jumps just didn't have the quality that Midori's did.

    PrettyKeys I didn't mean Midori isn't artistic. I enjoy her presentation a lot actually. She was always joyful on the ice. However, I am just thinking that she may be marked down due to the fact that she may not be as elegant as some of the others in the judges' eyes. And I think this does have something to do with body lines which makes the skater's movements seem more appealing.

  4. #19
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Wow. Didn't imagine the responses. Janetfan, the reason I think Midori may have the edge in TES is because she is capable of doing everything technically (all the triples, 3-3, and the 3A), and her jumps have height, distance, and great flow. I don't think you can compare that to Yukari's jumps even if they both have leg-wraps. I mean Yukari's jumps just didn't have the quality that Midori's did.
    .
    I disagree with fans who think Midori would have been so much better off under CoP.
    Like I already said - skaters like Mirai and Laura would have massacred Midori on spins and spirals and other areas.

    Midori simply was not a good enough all around skater - in her own era - or today's era to have done any better.

    Unlike a skater like Evan - she lacked the great competitive abilty under pressure.
    I think of Midori as an anomaly - so great at jumps - so far ahead of her time - but nothing else. She was NOT a great artistic skater - she sucked at figures - and she was NOT, NOT , NOT a great competitior. She was NOT a great artist. She was a great legwrapped jumper.

    Since I am actually old enough to remember her career I don't get sucked into incredibly stupid "urban legends" about her skating.

    She had NO chance to win the OGM in 1988 because her FIGURES SUCKED. She was sitting in 10th place after the figures and that was that.

  5. #20
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    It's my personal opinion that technically, ladies' figure skating hit a peak in the era of Midori Ito and Kristi Yamaguchi and went backwards during Michelle Kwan's time....

    I consider this era to be on about the same level, technically, as Michelle's time...
    I guess what struck me as I was thinking about the questions raised on this thread was this. In every sport it seems obvious that each generation carries the torch higher, faster, stronger than the previous. Whether because of advances in training techniques or whatever, in every measurable sport records are routinely broken by the new wonderkids on the block.

    Yet in ladies' figure skating we have Kristi Yamaguchi doing seven triple programs with a triple Lutz/triple toe combination and Midori Ito doing triple Axels and triple/triples in the same program -- feats that today cannot be matched quite, even by the best skaters in the world. Two decades later!

    How many different types of triples did Katarina Witt do under 6.0 at her 1988 Olympics?
    Indeed. Look at the at the whiz-bang elevation in technical expectations that occurred in the sport in just four years, 1988-1992.

    So, it just kind of surprised me to realize that some of the great skaters of the past could walk right in ♪, sit right down ♫ at their granddaughters' CoP skating contests, and be fully competitive with no extra preparation than to throw in a couple of extra turns in their footwork sequences and another position in their spirals.

    Score one for the oldies but goodies!
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-03-2010 at 03:24 PM.

  6. #21
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I guess what struck me as I was thinking about the questions raised on this thread was this. In every sport it seems obvious that each generation carries the torch higher, faster, stronger than the previous. Whether because of advances in training techniques or whatever, in every measurable sport records are routinely broken by the new wonderkids on the block.

    Yet in ladies' figure skating we have Kristi Yamaguchi doing seven triple programs with a triple Lutz/triple toe combination and Midori Ito doing triple Axels and triple/triples in the same program -- feats that today cannot quit be matched quite, even by the best skaters in the world. Two decades later!

    Indeed. Look at the at the whiz-bang elevation in technical expectations that occurred in the sport in just four years, 1988-1992.

    So, it just kind of surprised me to realize that some of the great skaters of the past could walk right in ♪, sit right down ♫ at their granddaughters' CoP skating contests, and be fully competitive with no extra preparation than to throw in a couple of extra turns in their footwork sequences and another position in their spirals.

    Score one for the oldies but goodies!
    It might also help you to know more about skating history and competitve spirit.

    Kati was not my favorite - but only posters who can't remember her would doubt her abilities.
    Do you know which Lady did the first 3Flip in a major competition?
    Seems I recall you had quite a bit to say about that jump - but NOT much about it's history.

    If Midori had not absoulutely sucked at figures - and Kati felt even slightly threatened by her - she could and would have upped her jumps. That is a factual statement about Kati - she did it throughout her entire career.

    It is ridiculous to ever think Midori could have won the OMG in 1988. She simply was not competitive at the figures. She was also unpolished by artistry standards of her era.
    Rules are rules - whether we like them or not.

    Now - aside from the most famos BAD triple flip in skating history - which I suppose you know about - who did the triple flip years before the other Ladies?
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-03-2010 at 03:21 PM.

  7. #22
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    Indeed. Look at the at the whiz-bang elevation in technical expectations that occurred in the sport in just four years, 1988-1992.

    So, it just kind of surprised me to realize that some of the great skaters of the past could walk right in ♪, sit right down ♫ at their granddaughters' CoP skating contests, and be fully competitive with no extra preparation than to throw in a couple of extra turns in their footwork sequences and another position in their spirals.

    Score one for the oldies but goodies!

    Ladies skating improved techniaclly by leaps and bounds because of the discontinuation of figures. Skaters suddenly had hours of extra time on their hands which had previously been devoted to figures. They had great edges and skating skill from all that figure practice so they learned how to jump. I think that they reached the limits of what ladies can do in the air. Of course it was easier that they did not much else but stroke around between the jumps.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    Ladies skating improved techniaclly by leaps and bounds because of the discontinuation of figures. Skaters suddenly had hours of extra time on their hands which had previously been devoted to figures. They had great edges and skating skill from all that figure practice so they learned how to jump. I think that they reached the limits of what ladies can do in the air. Of course it was easier that they did not much else but stroke around between the jumps.
    Thankyou for some historical perspective. A great example is that Midori had been practicing the 3A - but did not try it at the 1988 Olympics because she and her coach were trying to improve her horrible figures.

  9. #24
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Janetfan, what in the world are you so angry about? Do you realize that you have repeated three times now, once in CAPITALS, that Midori Ito "sucked at figures?"

    The question was, how would skaters of past eras have fared under CoP scoring. There are no figures to worry about in the IJS.

    How would Ito's presentation marks have transformed into program component scores? She wasn't bad at all. At the 1992 Olympics her second mark scores were

    5.8 5.8 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.8 5.8 5.5 5.8

    For comparison, bronze medalist Nancy Kerrigan came in at

    5.7 5.7 5.8 5.6 5.7 5.8 5.7 5.6 5.8

  10. #25
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I disagree with fans who think Midori would have been so much better off under CoP.
    Like I already said - skaters like Mirai and Laura would have massacred Midori on spins and spirals and other areas.
    Huh? Mirai already outspins YuNa and Mao, but she hasn't beat either of them yet. Midori would be able to get the TES (base value and GoE's) to run away with the lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Since I am actually old enough to remember her career I don't get sucked into incredibly stupid "urban legends" about her skating.
    You're also old enough with a spotty/selective memory to belong in a nursing home...what?

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    She had NO chance to win the OGM in 1988 because her FIGURES SUCKED. She was sitting in 10th place after the figures and that was that.
    Let's use our brains, now. Figures competition has nothing to do with "today's system". So this point is relevant...how?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I guess what struck me as I was thinking about the questions raised on this thread was this. In every sport it seems obvious that each generation carries the torch higher, faster, stronger than the previous. Whether because of advances in training techniques or whatever, in every measurable sport records are routinely broken by the new wonderkids on the block.
    YuNa's breaking records in scoring, does that make you jump up and down? No? It doesn't to me, either...because...this sport is clearly not about merely "higher, faster, stronger." If that's what you want, then I suggest following several other sports. (As an aside, YuNa's jumps are superior in height and distance to Kristi's.)

    Michelle Kwan remains the most complete skater. YuNa and Mao are so close to reaching that level of completeness. So, what? Would I like for more complete porfolios of triple jumps in programs rewarded? Sure. The IJS needs to fix that, and a ton of other things. I still don't see how it is fair or rational to use two 19/20 year olds in a relatively new system to compare with legends from the older system at the peaks of their careers.

  11. #26
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Janetfan, what in the world are you so angry about? Do you realize that you have repeated three times now, once in CAPITALS, that Midori Ito "sucked at figures?"
    No kidding?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    No kidding?
    Based on your experience as a skater - can you please tell us more?
    I didn't think so

  13. #28
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Based on your experience as a skater - can you please tell us more?
    I didn't think so
    Based on your experience as a skater, please tell us more about what Midori Ito "sucked" at, and why that has any relevance to this thread? Demonstrate the use of your gray matter?

    I didn't think so.

  14. #29
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    I still don't see how it is fair or rational to use two 19/20 year olds in a relatively new system to compare with legends from the older system at the peaks of their careers.
    Fair or rational, on a figure skating board? The OP raised the question specifically of how Michelle Kwan, Kristi Yamaguchi, Midori Ito and Irina Slutskaya would have done under CoP judging. I thought that was an interesting subject for speculation. I will try Irina next.

    (Would it be snarky of me to mention that the "great legends from the older system -- Kristi and Midori -- at the peak of their careers were also 19/20? )

  15. #30
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Fair or rational, on a figure skating board? The OP raised the question specifically of how Michelle Kwan, Kristi Yamaguchi, Midori Ito and Irina Slutskaya would have done under CoP judging. I thought that was an interesting subject for speculation. I will try Irina next.

    (Would it be snarky of me to mention that the "great legends from the older system -- Kristi and Midori -- at the peak of their careers were also 19/20? )
    It would not be snarky of you, but I said that YuNa and Mao are 19/20 year olds in a relatively new system. Imagine if Mao and her coaches had actually understood how to compete best under CoP. Imagine if CoP had been better tweaked to actually reward a complete portfolio of triple jumps?

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