Hypothetically, how would past great skaters like Michelle fare in today's system? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Hypothetically, how would past great skaters like Michelle fare in today's system?

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I guess what struck me as I was thinking about the questions raised on this thread was this. In every sport it seems obvious that each generation carries the torch higher, faster, stronger than the previous. Whether because of advances in training techniques or whatever, in every measurable sport records are routinely broken by the new wonderkids on the block.

Yet in ladies' figure skating we have Kristi Yamaguchi doing seven triple programs with a triple Lutz/triple toe combination and Midori Ito doing triple Axels and triple/triples in the same program -- feats that today cannot quit be matched quite, even by the best skaters in the world. Two decades later!

Indeed. Look at the at the whiz-bang elevation in technical expectations that occurred in the sport in just four years, 1988-1992.

So, it just kind of surprised me to realize that some of the great skaters of the past could walk right in ♪, sit right down ♫ at their granddaughters' CoP skating contests, and be fully competitive with no extra preparation than to throw in a couple of extra turns in their footwork sequences and another position in their spirals.

Score one for the oldies but goodies! :rock:

It might also help you to know more about skating history and competitve spirit.

Kati was not my favorite - but only posters who can't remember her would doubt her abilities.
Do you know which Lady did the first 3Flip in a major competition?
Seems I recall you had quite a bit to say about that jump - but NOT much about it's history.

If Midori had not absoulutely sucked at figures - and Kati felt even slightly threatened by her - she could and would have upped her jumps. That is a factual statement about Kati - she did it throughout her entire career.

It is ridiculous to ever think Midori could have won the OMG in 1988. She simply was not competitive at the figures. She was also unpolished by artistry standards of her era.
Rules are rules - whether we like them or not.

Now - aside from the most famos BAD triple flip in skating history - which I suppose you know about - who did the triple flip years before the other Ladies?
 
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Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Indeed. Look at the at the whiz-bang elevation in technical expectations that occurred in the sport in just four years, 1988-1992.

So, it just kind of surprised me to realize that some of the great skaters of the past could walk right in ♪, sit right down ♫ at their granddaughters' CoP skating contests, and be fully competitive with no extra preparation than to throw in a couple of extra turns in their footwork sequences and another position in their spirals.

Score one for the oldies but goodies! :rock:


Ladies skating improved techniaclly by leaps and bounds because of the discontinuation of figures. Skaters suddenly had hours of extra time on their hands which had previously been devoted to figures. They had great edges and skating skill from all that figure practice so they learned how to jump. I think that they reached the limits of what ladies can do in the air. Of course it was easier that they did not much else but stroke around between the jumps.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Ladies skating improved techniaclly by leaps and bounds because of the discontinuation of figures. Skaters suddenly had hours of extra time on their hands which had previously been devoted to figures. They had great edges and skating skill from all that figure practice so they learned how to jump. I think that they reached the limits of what ladies can do in the air. Of course it was easier that they did not much else but stroke around between the jumps.

Thankyou for some historical perspective. A great example is that Midori had been practicing the 3A - but did not try it at the 1988 Olympics because she and her coach were trying to improve her horrible figures.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Janetfan, what in the world are you so angry about? Do you realize that you have repeated three times now, once in CAPITALS, that Midori Ito "sucked at figures?"

The question was, how would skaters of past eras have fared under CoP scoring. There are no figures to worry about in the IJS.

How would Ito's presentation marks have transformed into program component scores? She wasn't bad at all. At the 1992 Olympics her second mark scores were

5.8 5.8 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.8 5.8 5.5 5.8

For comparison, bronze medalist Nancy Kerrigan came in at

5.7 5.7 5.8 5.6 5.7 5.8 5.7 5.6 5.8
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
I disagree with fans who think Midori would have been so much better off under CoP.
Like I already said - skaters like Mirai and Laura would have massacred Midori on spins and spirals and other areas.
Huh? Mirai already outspins YuNa and Mao, but she hasn't beat either of them yet. Midori would be able to get the TES (base value and GoE's) to run away with the lead.

Since I am actually old enough to remember her career I don't get sucked into incredibly stupid "urban legends" about her skating.
You're also old enough with a spotty/selective memory to belong in a nursing home...what?

She had NO chance to win the OGM in 1988 because her FIGURES SUCKED. She was sitting in 10th place after the figures and that was that.
Let's use our brains, now. Figures competition has nothing to do with "today's system". So this point is relevant...how?

I guess what struck me as I was thinking about the questions raised on this thread was this. In every sport it seems obvious that each generation carries the torch higher, faster, stronger than the previous. Whether because of advances in training techniques or whatever, in every measurable sport records are routinely broken by the new wonderkids on the block.
YuNa's breaking records in scoring, does that make you jump up and down? No? It doesn't to me, either...because...this sport is clearly not about merely "higher, faster, stronger." If that's what you want, then I suggest following several other sports. (As an aside, YuNa's jumps are superior in height and distance to Kristi's.)

Michelle Kwan remains the most complete skater. YuNa and Mao are so close to reaching that level of completeness. So, what? Would I like for more complete porfolios of triple jumps in programs rewarded? Sure. The IJS needs to fix that, and a ton of other things. I still don't see how it is fair or rational to use two 19/20 year olds in a relatively new system to compare with legends from the older system at the peaks of their careers.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Based on your experience as a skater - can you please tell us more?
I didn't think so :)
Based on your experience as a skater, please tell us more about what Midori Ito "sucked" at, and why that has any relevance to this thread? Demonstrate the use of your gray matter?

I didn't think so. :)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I still don't see how it is fair or rational to use two 19/20 year olds in a relatively new system to compare with legends from the older system at the peaks of their careers.

Fair or rational, on a figure skating board? :) The OP raised the question specifically of how Michelle Kwan, Kristi Yamaguchi, Midori Ito and Irina Slutskaya would have done under CoP judging. I thought that was an interesting subject for speculation. I will try Irina next.

(Would it be snarky of me to mention that the "great legends from the older system -- Kristi and Midori -- at the peak of their careers were also 19/20? :cool: )
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Fair or rational, on a figure skating board? :) The OP raised the question specifically of how Michelle Kwan, Kristi Yamaguchi, Midori Ito and Irina Slutskaya would have done under CoP judging. I thought that was an interesting subject for speculation. I will try Irina next.

(Would it be snarky of me to mention that the "great legends from the older system -- Kristi and Midori -- at the peak of their careers were also 19/20? :cool: )
It would not be snarky of you, but I said that YuNa and Mao are 19/20 year olds in a relatively new system. Imagine if Mao and her coaches had actually understood how to compete best under CoP. Imagine if CoP had been better tweaked to actually reward a complete portfolio of triple jumps? :p
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Midori was not competitive at the school figures. Sorry - but please try and USE YOUR BRAIN :laugh:
Really? OMG My world has just been turned upside down, how did I not realize this. I can now see that Midori would not do well under CoP because she was bad at Figures. Thank you for edifying me, I have so much to learn from you.

(not)
 

tarotx

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Midori might not have scored high in figures but she still trained them and that would have really benefited her and all the figure skaters.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It would not be snarky of you, but I said that YuNa and Mao are 19/20 year olds in a relatively new system. Imagine if Mao and her coaches had actually understood how to compete best under CoP.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood the thrust of your sentence.

About Mao, when she came to everyone's attention as a thirteen-year-old, I thought, OK, this is it. She will be the greatest ever.

In fact, on Golden Skate for a short time we had a particularly cute picture of young Mao which we put up wherever we had to close a thread because of cantankerous arguments. If you clicked on a thread and saw Mao, this meant , "simmer down, everybody." :laugh:

(Time marches on. Now we just let folks rant. ;) )
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Okay, I don't understand how Midori's ability at figures factor into how well she will do under a system that doesn't even account for figures. :sheesh: And Janetfan, I find it ironic that you repeatedly criticize her for being bad at figures when your beloved skater, Janet Lynn were also well-known to be not great at figures. :rolleye: Yuna's biggest advantage over everyone else is in her GOE score for her jumps. Midori's jumps were spectacular, so it's reasonable to assume that she will rack up GOE points under the system.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Okay, I don't understand how Midori's ability at figures factor into how well she will do under a system that doesn't even account for figures. :sheesh: And Janetfan, I find it ironic that you repeatedly criticize her for being bad at figures when your beloved skater, Janet Lynn were also well-known to be not great at figures. :rolleye: Yuna's biggest advantage over everyone else is in her GOE score for her jumps. Midori's jumps were spectacular, so it's reasonable to assume that she will rack up GOE points under the system.

I have many, many "beloved" skaters. Too many list........

Can you show me a post where I ever said Janet should have won more than she did? Look for weeks - check every post I ever made and you won't find it.
Janet competed in the era of figures and it kept here from achieving better results. I have NEVER disputed that.

Your irony exists in your own mind - when Janet was competing figures were worth almost 60% of the total score. Because figures counted for so much it was hard to overcome if you were not one of the best.

Rules are rules - like them or not. Janet went head to head with some of the best skaters of compulsary figures in history. Midori did not - Kati and kristi were no better at figures than Janet - but they were infinitely better than Midori. By Midori's era figures value had been greatly reduced and podium skaters were no longer figure experts the way they were in the 30,' 50's, 60's and 70's.
Midori did not win more medals because she not only failed to crack the top 10 in figures - but here artistry was not as good as many of the ladies of her era.

A great jumper - leg wrap and all - yes! Other aspects of her skating - no better than average.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
YuNa's breaking records in scoring, does that make you jump up and down?

Actually...yeah, it kind of did. :) 2009 Worlds, 207.71! 2009 Eric Bompard, 210.03!! 2010 Olympic Games, 228.56!!! Ya-a-ay!!!!

Butller 52, Michigan State 50. :cry:

So, how would Irina Slutskaya have stacked up in the CoP era? Here we don't have to guess:

2005 Worlds 192.94
2005 Cup of China 196.12
2005 Cup of Russia 198.06

Add another 10 points for "grade inflation" over the last couple of years, et voila. :)
 

Daniel5555

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Ok, let's talk about this.

First of all, I would like to say, that if today's skaters had to compete against the legends of the past generations, they would have a very hard time and those legends would be strong contenders for the gold.
But as the thread somehow converted in comparison between old and new, let's try to compare the technical merits of the old skaters vs new skaters. Let's start with the Michelle Kwan, the best skater from the past and Yuna Kim, the best skater of the present.

Disclaimer: I swear, I don't try to put someone down and someone up. I just want to analyze how was figure skating in the past and how it is now, and what things changed for good and what for bad. Right now as the thread goes it seems that most people think that the sport is not developing anymore in terms of technique. I would like to talk about that, nothing more. There is no doubt that Michelle Kwan is legendary skater with incredible skating skill and unmatched historical importance and legacy.

I guess, it all comes down to compare two performances back to back:

Michelle Kwan, the song of the black swan, Worlds 2001: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFp7RVrihvk

Yuna Kim, concerto in F, Olympic games 2010: just find it somewhere, here, for example: http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/assetid=e554cf17-5d3c-4531-9dc6-c9a9cf5eec06.html

Michelle's jumping layout (we are only comparing jumps now) with element's value under CoP (only base, no GOEs, no any kind of bonus):

3Loop 5,0
3 Toe + 3 Toe 8,0
3 Lutz + 2 Toe 7,3
3 Salchow 4,5
3 Flip 5,5
2 Axel 3,5
3 Lutz 6,0

Total points: 39,8

7 Triples
9 Jumps
25 Rotations

Yuna Kim (same):

3 Lutz + 3 Toe 10,0
3 Flip 5,5
2 Axel + 2 Toe + 2 Loop 6,3
2 Axel + 3 Toe 7,5
3 Salchow 4,5
3 Lutz 6,0
2 Axel 3,5

Total points: 43,3.


6 Triples
11 Jumps
27 Rotations

...

Now let's try to analize it.

Let's see if Yuna Kim is really inferior in jumping techniques to Michelle Kwan.
As we can see while Yuna doesn't have 7 triples, she has more jumps overall and more combinations of jumps. She lacks 3 Loop, but she is capable of doing it instead of one of the 2 Axels. In that case her overall punctuation would increase and she would have 7 triples.
Speaking outside of those performances we should remember that Yuna has different 3+3 combinations: 3 Lutz + 3 Toe, 3 Flip + 3 Toe, 3 Toe + 3 Toe. Michelle as far as I know only executed 3 Toe + 3 Toe (which at times was 2 Toe + 2 Toe). However she was capable of doing other combinations for sure.
The quality of jumps in my opinion goes to Yuna. While Michelle does them really good and she's a textbook jumper, the first jump of her combination has less height (and probably length) than second jump in Yuna's combination (please, refer to videos).
When it comes to other aspects besides jumps it is really hard to judge. For example, it's hard to determine who was faster skater. I think that Michelle was, generally, faster than Yuna and absolutely faster during step sequences (her movement speed is absolutely INCREDIBLE). Still, according to Michelle, "Yuna is the fastest skater I have seen". Which means that she is considerably fast.

Right now I can't write anything about Kristi Yamaguchi and Midori Ito comparing to Yuna, because it's too late in my area.

Disclaimer: I swear, I don't try to put someone down and someone up. I just want to analyze how was figure skating in the past and how it is now, and what things changed for good and what for bad. Right now as the thread goes it seems that most people think that the sport is not developing anymore in terms of technique. I would like to talk about that, nothing more. There is no doubt that Michelle Kwan is legendary skater with incredible skating skill and unmatched historical importance and legacy.

I think that if Michelle would have to skate in this era, she would skate differently and, in my opinion, better than she skated before. She would be really strong competitor as she always was.

Those who are experts, like Mathman, I really would like to know your opinion about this.
Also if someone wants to provide another examples, I would like to ask them to provide a link to the actual performances instead of just writing the jumping layout.

Thanks for attention.
 
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miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Personally, I am quite happy Michelle competed under 6.0 for most of her career. Since Michelle didn't try the harder 3-3 combos and the current system do not reward ladies for doing all the triples, she will be at a disadvantage technically. Although I think she deserves 10's across the board for interpretation. ;)In addition, the current system do not reward clean performances enough unlike the 6.0, which Michelle is known to do.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I disagree with fans who think Midori would have been so much better off under CoP.
Like I already said - skaters like Mirai and Laura would have massacred Midori on spins and spirals and other areas.

Midori simply was not a good enough all around skater - in her own era - or today's era to have done any better.

Unlike a skater like Evan - she lacked the great competitive abilty under pressure.
I think of Midori as an anomaly - so great at jumps - so far ahead of her time - but nothing else. She was NOT a great artistic skater.

None of this is correct. Midori wasn't just jumps. She had excellent spins and footwork sequences. She had artistry, just not in the classical sense. Midori didn't lack the ability to compete under pressure either. She outperformed everyone at the top competitions in 1988, 1989, and 1990 (in the SP + LP, certainly). Being the best 3 years in a row is really good, last I heard.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
None of this is correct. Midori wasn't just jumps. She had excellent spins and footwork sequences. She had artistry, just not in the classical sense. Midori didn't lack the ability to compete under pressure either. She outperformed everyone at the top competitions in 1988, 1989, and 1990 (in the SP + LP, certainly). Being the best 3 years in a row is really good, last I heard.

I also think Midori would have fared well under CoP because of her jumps, spins, footwork, not to mention her ability to project her performance on the ice.

If she were training under this era, she would not have had to devote her training time on figures, so whatever jumps, spins, footwork she was doing under 6.0 would have had even more polish.

The only part she might have had difficulty with might have been flexilibility. She was flexible enough under the standards of 6.0, but she was not as flexible as Mirai or Mao. But then, if she were competing now, she probably would have trained differently to achieve more flexibility.
 
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