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Thread: Hypothetically, how would past great skaters like Michelle fare in today's system?

  1. #31
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Midori was not competitive at the school figures. Sorry - but please try and USE YOUR BRAIN
    Really? OMG My world has just been turned upside down, how did I not realize this. I can now see that Midori would not do well under CoP because she was bad at Figures. Thank you for edifying me, I have so much to learn from you.

    (not)

  2. #32
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    Midori might not have scored high in figures but she still trained them and that would have really benefited her and all the figure skaters.

  3. #33
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    It would not be snarky of you, but I said that YuNa and Mao are 19/20 year olds in a relatively new system. Imagine if Mao and her coaches had actually understood how to compete best under CoP.
    Oh, sorry, I misunderstood the thrust of your sentence.

    About Mao, when she came to everyone's attention as a thirteen-year-old, I thought, OK, this is it. She will be the greatest ever.

    In fact, on Golden Skate for a short time we had a particularly cute picture of young Mao which we put up wherever we had to close a thread because of cantankerous arguments. If you clicked on a thread and saw Mao, this meant , "simmer down, everybody."

    (Time marches on. Now we just let folks rant. )

  4. #34
    Mashimaro on Ice
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    Okay, I don't understand how Midori's ability at figures factor into how well she will do under a system that doesn't even account for figures. :sheesh: And Janetfan, I find it ironic that you repeatedly criticize her for being bad at figures when your beloved skater, Janet Lynn were also well-known to be not great at figures. Yuna's biggest advantage over everyone else is in her GOE score for her jumps. Midori's jumps were spectacular, so it's reasonable to assume that she will rack up GOE points under the system.

  5. #35
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Okay, I don't understand how Midori's ability at figures factor into how well she will do under a system that doesn't even account for figures. :sheesh: And Janetfan, I find it ironic that you repeatedly criticize her for being bad at figures when your beloved skater, Janet Lynn were also well-known to be not great at figures. Yuna's biggest advantage over everyone else is in her GOE score for her jumps. Midori's jumps were spectacular, so it's reasonable to assume that she will rack up GOE points under the system.
    I have many, many "beloved" skaters. Too many list........

    Can you show me a post where I ever said Janet should have won more than she did? Look for weeks - check every post I ever made and you won't find it.
    Janet competed in the era of figures and it kept here from achieving better results. I have NEVER disputed that.

    Your irony exists in your own mind - when Janet was competing figures were worth almost 60% of the total score. Because figures counted for so much it was hard to overcome if you were not one of the best.

    Rules are rules - like them or not. Janet went head to head with some of the best skaters of compulsary figures in history. Midori did not - Kati and kristi were no better at figures than Janet - but they were infinitely better than Midori. By Midori's era figures value had been greatly reduced and podium skaters were no longer figure experts the way they were in the 30,' 50's, 60's and 70's.
    Midori did not win more medals because she not only failed to crack the top 10 in figures - but here artistry was not as good as many of the ladies of her era.

    A great jumper - leg wrap and all - yes! Other aspects of her skating - no better than average.

  6. #36
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    YuNa's breaking records in scoring, does that make you jump up and down?
    Actually...yeah, it kind of did. 2009 Worlds, 207.71! 2009 Eric Bompard, 210.03!! 2010 Olympic Games, 228.56!!! Ya-a-ay!!!!

    Butller 52, Michigan State 50.

    So, how would Irina Slutskaya have stacked up in the CoP era? Here we don't have to guess:

    2005 Worlds 192.94
    2005 Cup of China 196.12
    2005 Cup of Russia 198.06

    Add another 10 points for "grade inflation" over the last couple of years, et voila.

  7. #37
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    Ok, let's talk about this.

    First of all, I would like to say, that if today's skaters had to compete against the legends of the past generations, they would have a very hard time and those legends would be strong contenders for the gold.
    But as the thread somehow converted in comparison between old and new, let's try to compare the technical merits of the old skaters vs new skaters. Let's start with the Michelle Kwan, the best skater from the past and Yuna Kim, the best skater of the present.

    Disclaimer: I swear, I don't try to put someone down and someone up. I just want to analyze how was figure skating in the past and how it is now, and what things changed for good and what for bad. Right now as the thread goes it seems that most people think that the sport is not developing anymore in terms of technique. I would like to talk about that, nothing more. There is no doubt that Michelle Kwan is legendary skater with incredible skating skill and unmatched historical importance and legacy.

    I guess, it all comes down to compare two performances back to back:

    Michelle Kwan, the song of the black swan, Worlds 2001: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFp7RVrihvk

    Yuna Kim, concerto in F, Olympic games 2010: just find it somewhere, here, for example: http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/[color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color]...9cf5eec06.html

    Michelle's jumping layout (we are only comparing jumps now) with element's value under CoP (only base, no GOEs, no any kind of bonus):

    3Loop 5,0
    3 Toe + 3 Toe 8,0
    3 Lutz + 2 Toe 7,3
    3 Salchow 4,5
    3 Flip 5,5
    2 Axel 3,5
    3 Lutz 6,0

    Total points: 39,8

    7 Triples
    9 Jumps
    25 Rotations

    Yuna Kim (same):

    3 Lutz + 3 Toe 10,0
    3 Flip 5,5
    2 Axel + 2 Toe + 2 Loop 6,3
    2 Axel + 3 Toe 7,5
    3 Salchow 4,5
    3 Lutz 6,0
    2 Axel 3,5

    Total points: 43,3.


    6 Triples
    11 Jumps
    27 Rotations

    ...

    Now let's try to analize it.

    Let's see if Yuna Kim is really inferior in jumping techniques to Michelle Kwan.
    As we can see while Yuna doesn't have 7 triples, she has more jumps overall and more combinations of jumps. She lacks 3 Loop, but she is capable of doing it instead of one of the 2 Axels. In that case her overall punctuation would increase and she would have 7 triples.
    Speaking outside of those performances we should remember that Yuna has different 3+3 combinations: 3 Lutz + 3 Toe, 3 Flip + 3 Toe, 3 Toe + 3 Toe. Michelle as far as I know only executed 3 Toe + 3 Toe (which at times was 2 Toe + 2 Toe). However she was capable of doing other combinations for sure.
    The quality of jumps in my opinion goes to Yuna. While Michelle does them really good and she's a textbook jumper, the first jump of her combination has less height (and probably length) than second jump in Yuna's combination (please, refer to videos).
    When it comes to other aspects besides jumps it is really hard to judge. For example, it's hard to determine who was faster skater. I think that Michelle was, generally, faster than Yuna and absolutely faster during step sequences (her movement speed is absolutely INCREDIBLE). Still, according to Michelle, "Yuna is the fastest skater I have seen". Which means that she is considerably fast.

    Right now I can't write anything about Kristi Yamaguchi and Midori Ito comparing to Yuna, because it's too late in my area.

    Disclaimer: I swear, I don't try to put someone down and someone up. I just want to analyze how was figure skating in the past and how it is now, and what things changed for good and what for bad. Right now as the thread goes it seems that most people think that the sport is not developing anymore in terms of technique. I would like to talk about that, nothing more. There is no doubt that Michelle Kwan is legendary skater with incredible skating skill and unmatched historical importance and legacy.

    I think that if Michelle would have to skate in this era, she would skate differently and, in my opinion, better than she skated before. She would be really strong competitor as she always was.

    Those who are experts, like Mathman, I really would like to know your opinion about this.
    Also if someone wants to provide another examples, I would like to ask them to provide a link to the actual performances instead of just writing the jumping layout.

    Thanks for attention.
    Last edited by Daniel5555; 04-03-2010 at 08:56 PM.

  8. #38
    Mashimaro on Ice
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    Personally, I am quite happy Michelle competed under 6.0 for most of her career. Since Michelle didn't try the harder 3-3 combos and the current system do not reward ladies for doing all the triples, she will be at a disadvantage technically. Although I think she deserves 10's across the board for interpretation. In addition, the current system do not reward clean performances enough unlike the 6.0, which Michelle is known to do.
    Last edited by miki88; 04-03-2010 at 09:15 PM.

  9. #39
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I disagree with fans who think Midori would have been so much better off under CoP.
    Like I already said - skaters like Mirai and Laura would have massacred Midori on spins and spirals and other areas.

    Midori simply was not a good enough all around skater - in her own era - or today's era to have done any better.

    Unlike a skater like Evan - she lacked the great competitive abilty under pressure.
    I think of Midori as an anomaly - so great at jumps - so far ahead of her time - but nothing else. She was NOT a great artistic skater.
    None of this is correct. Midori wasn't just jumps. She had excellent spins and footwork sequences. She had artistry, just not in the classical sense. Midori didn't lack the ability to compete under pressure either. She outperformed everyone at the top competitions in 1988, 1989, and 1990 (in the SP + LP, certainly). Being the best 3 years in a row is really good, last I heard.

  10. #40
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    None of this is correct. Midori wasn't just jumps. She had excellent spins and footwork sequences. She had artistry, just not in the classical sense. Midori didn't lack the ability to compete under pressure either. She outperformed everyone at the top competitions in 1988, 1989, and 1990 (in the SP + LP, certainly). Being the best 3 years in a row is really good, last I heard.
    I also think Midori would have fared well under CoP because of her jumps, spins, footwork, not to mention her ability to project her performance on the ice.

    If she were training under this era, she would not have had to devote her training time on figures, so whatever jumps, spins, footwork she was doing under 6.0 would have had even more polish.

    The only part she might have had difficulty with might have been flexilibility. She was flexible enough under the standards of 6.0, but she was not as flexible as Mirai or Mao. But then, if she were competing now, she probably would have trained differently to achieve more flexibility.

  11. #41
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniell555
    *whole post*


    I am very far from being an expert, but I will give my opinion about the difference in jump layouts between Michelle's program and Yu-na's. First, big props to Yu-na for the 3Lz+3T combo. Also for the height, distance, and pop of her jumps. (By the way, I do not think this Olympic performance was Yu-na's all-time best. I thought both the 2009 Worlds LP and the 2009 Eric bompard LP were better, even though they received fewer points from the judges.)

    However, I think the main difference is that under the CoP the skaters try to piece together each little hundredth of a point, while under 6.0 the overall shape of the technical content was more important. Most of the advantage that Yu-na has (in terms of "number of revolutions," for instance) goes away if Michelle simply tacks on an extra +2T+2Lo somewhere.

    To me, Michelle's program leaves the impression that Michelle has just put on a figure skating clinic. This is how you do a triple loop. This is how you do a 3Lz+2T combo, etc. I think, in a nutshell, that is how to win a competition under 6.0 judging. (Interesting that the judges gave Michelle only 5.7s and 5.8s for that, "leaving room" for Slutskaya.)

  12. #42
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    Mathman and Daniel, it's really clarifying to read your combined analyses of YuNa's and Michelle's routines. I think between you, you've managed to articulate what's excellent about both skaters and both eras as well. I'm no expert at jump analysis, but even I can see that YuNa covers an amazing amount of ice, both vertically and horizontally, with her jumps. It's especially noticeable in the second jump of a combination. On the other hand, Michelle's amalgam of precision and expressive artistry has few if any rivals. Though I'm mightily impressed with YuNa, I rank Michelle as my favorite for a combination of subjective and objective reasons--which means I can't defend or explain my preference. I'm glad that she (and also Kristi) would hold up well (with some retooling in training) in the CoP era.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Actually...yeah, it kind of did. 2009 Worlds, 207.71! 2009 Eric Bompard, 210.03!! 2010 Olympic Games, 228.56!!! Ya-a-ay!!!!

    Butller 52, Michigan State 50.

    So, how would Irina Slutskaya have stacked up in the CoP era? Here we don't have to guess:

    2005 Worlds 192.94
    2005 Cup of China 196.12
    2005 Cup of Russia 198.06

    Add another 10 points for "grade inflation" over the last couple of years, et voila.
    Hehe, it's the only "old" skater who skated under CoP as well and she did really well. She was kind of a total package under current system.

    Jumps: Great height, especially on Lutz and Flip which were as high or even higher than Yu-Na's. Sometimes pulling of difficult triple-triples like 3Lz+3L or 3S+3L/3S+3L+2T, capable of landing 3T+3T too.
    Spirals: Very good, often got over 1,00 GOE and level 4 because of the biellmans positions
    Spins: Very well, she overused biellman but why not if she could collect many points this way? Usually level 4, sometimes 3. FCSp, LSp, CoSp and CCoSp
    Sreps: That's her weakest point, usually level 2, sometimes 3 or 1.

    Her jump layout of 2005-2006 LP:
    3Lz+2L 7,5
    3S+2L+2T 7,3
    3F 5,5
    3F+2T 6,8
    3L 5
    3T 4
    2A 3,5

    Total points: 39,6
    6 triples
    11 jumps
    28 rotations

    She could switch 2L in 3-2-2 combination to 3L so total points would be 43,1 and number of rotations 29. Adding her consistensy and other elements mentioned before she would have fared and she actually fared really well under CoP.
    Last edited by Bartek; 04-05-2010 at 02:31 PM.

  14. #44
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    They Would Have Been Competitive

    All the top skaters under 6.0 would have been competitve if they had trained under the new system. Their programs would have been designed to meet the ridiculous demands of CoP just like they are now. It is only logical. As for Tara's 3L/3L not being ratified, the one at the Olympics sure would have been. It was amazing, and this is from a Michelle fan of many years.

    If Mirai had held it together for the LP she would have won. Her spins, spirals and laybacks are unparalleled.

  15. #45
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Oh, sorry, I misunderstood the thrust of your sentence.

    About Mao, when she came to everyone's attention as a thirteen-year-old, I thought, OK, this is it. She will be the greatest ever.

    In fact, on Golden Skate for a short time we had a particularly cute picture of young Mao which we put up wherever we had to close a thread because of cantankerous arguments. If you clicked on a thread and saw Mao, this meant , "simmer down, everybody."

    (Time marches on. Now we just let folks rant. )
    Maybe you should resume posting cute Mao pictures when heated debates are stirred. I'm curious which picture that was. I do think Mao has the potential to be one of the absolute best, but for assorted reasons, her development has been derailed and delayed.

    I also agree that there are several 6.0 era skaters who would remain very competitive under CoP.

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