Hypothetically, how would past great skaters like Michelle fare in today's system? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Hypothetically, how would past great skaters like Michelle fare in today's system?

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Daniell555 said:
*whole post*
:clap:

I am very far from being an expert, but I will give my opinion about the difference in jump layouts between Michelle's program and Yu-na's. First, big props to Yu-na for the 3Lz+3T combo. Also for the height, distance, and pop of her jumps. (By the way, I do not think this Olympic performance was Yu-na's all-time best. I thought both the 2009 Worlds LP and the 2009 Eric bompard LP were better, even though they received fewer points from the judges.)

However, I think the main difference is that under the CoP the skaters try to piece together each little hundredth of a point, while under 6.0 the overall shape of the technical content was more important. Most of the advantage that Yu-na has (in terms of "number of revolutions," for instance) goes away if Michelle simply tacks on an extra +2T+2Lo somewhere.

To me, Michelle's program leaves the impression that Michelle has just put on a figure skating clinic. This is how you do a triple loop. This is how you do a 3Lz+2T combo, etc. I think, in a nutshell, that is how to win a competition under 6.0 judging. (Interesting that the judges gave Michelle only 5.7s and 5.8s for that, "leaving room" for Slutskaya.)
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Mathman and Daniel, it's really clarifying to read your combined analyses of YuNa's and Michelle's routines. I think between you, you've managed to articulate what's excellent about both skaters and both eras as well. I'm no expert at jump analysis, but even I can see that YuNa covers an amazing amount of ice, both vertically and horizontally, with her jumps. It's especially noticeable in the second jump of a combination. On the other hand, Michelle's amalgam of precision and expressive artistry has few if any rivals. Though I'm mightily impressed with YuNa, I rank Michelle as my favorite for a combination of subjective and objective reasons--which means I can't defend or explain my preference. I'm glad that she (and also Kristi) would hold up well (with some retooling in training) in the CoP era.
 

Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Actually...yeah, it kind of did. :) 2009 Worlds, 207.71! 2009 Eric Bompard, 210.03!! 2010 Olympic Games, 228.56!!! Ya-a-ay!!!!

Butller 52, Michigan State 50. :cry:

So, how would Irina Slutskaya have stacked up in the CoP era? Here we don't have to guess:

2005 Worlds 192.94
2005 Cup of China 196.12
2005 Cup of Russia 198.06

Add another 10 points for "grade inflation" over the last couple of years, et voila. :)

Hehe, it's the only "old" skater who skated under CoP as well and she did really well. She was kind of a total package under current system.

Jumps: Great height, especially on Lutz and Flip which were as high or even higher than Yu-Na's. Sometimes pulling of difficult triple-triples like 3Lz+3L or 3S+3L/3S+3L+2T, capable of landing 3T+3T too.
Spirals: Very good, often got over 1,00 GOE and level 4 because of the biellmans positions
Spins: Very well, she overused biellman but why not if she could collect many points this way? Usually level 4, sometimes 3. FCSp, LSp, CoSp and CCoSp
Sreps: That's her weakest point, usually level 2, sometimes 3 or 1.

Her jump layout of 2005-2006 LP:
3Lz+2L 7,5
3S+2L+2T 7,3
3F 5,5
3F+2T 6,8
3L 5
3T 4
2A 3,5

Total points: 39,6
6 triples
11 jumps
28 rotations

She could switch 2L in 3-2-2 combination to 3L so total points would be 43,1 and number of rotations 29. Adding her consistensy and other elements mentioned before she would have fared and she actually fared really well under CoP.
 
Last edited:

kyla2

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
They Would Have Been Competitive

All the top skaters under 6.0 would have been competitve if they had trained under the new system. Their programs would have been designed to meet the ridiculous demands of CoP just like they are now. It is only logical. As for Tara's 3L/3L not being ratified, the one at the Olympics sure would have been. It was amazing, and this is from a Michelle fan of many years.

If Mirai had held it together for the LP she would have won. Her spins, spirals and laybacks are unparalleled.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Oh, sorry, I misunderstood the thrust of your sentence.

About Mao, when she came to everyone's attention as a thirteen-year-old, I thought, OK, this is it. She will be the greatest ever.

In fact, on Golden Skate for a short time we had a particularly cute picture of young Mao which we put up wherever we had to close a thread because of cantankerous arguments. If you clicked on a thread and saw Mao, this meant , "simmer down, everybody." :laugh:

(Time marches on. Now we just let folks rant. ;) )
Maybe you should resume posting cute Mao pictures when heated debates are stirred. :laugh: I'm curious which picture that was. :) I do think Mao has the potential to be one of the absolute best, but for assorted reasons, her development has been derailed and delayed.

I also agree that there are several 6.0 era skaters who would remain very competitive under CoP.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Are we trying to judge how Michelle etal would have fared had COP been in place in their time? i.e. if COP had been in place from 1996 to 2003 how would Michelle have fared competing against the same skaters she competed against?
Or are we discussing how Michelle etal would have done today? I hope we're discussing the first because it seems more fair but I do see that some people are speculating on whether Michelle could beat Yuna Kim. To me whether Michelle could beat Yuna is not at all the same question as whether Michelle would have done well under COP.

Personally, I don't think there is any reason to think Michelle wouldn't have done well under COP. A great skater is a great skater and Michelle pretty much had it all. We've seen that skaters who don't have a 3-3 can rank well under COP because GOE counts for a lot. Michelle had good GOE on jumps compared to most of the skaters she was competing against.

We saw that Irina did well under the first version of COP

I do wonder if Michellle would have had her streak of national titles and world champions. The results seem a lot more volatile under COP because of the strictness of edge calls and URs and sometimes a skater gets no credit for whole spin combination. I know in Yuna's case she only finishes out of the top when she skates exceptionally badly but if you look at other skaters like Mirai or Rachael, their placements really go up and down.
I know Michelle was exceptionally competitive and consistent. And don't get me wrong, I think she deserved all her wins. But was it easier to finish 1st over and over again under 6.0.?

Also, I think if COP had been in place in Midori's era she would have done pretty much the same. (leaving aside the question of figures.) Bottom line, her jumps were way ahead of anyone else so that would have given her huge points. Plus, I agree that Midori's spins were good enough that she could have put them together well enought to get points under COP. As for spirals, there are so many ugly spiral sequences these days that get level 4s I don't see how Midori would be penalized to harshly for her lack of flexibility. But Kristi would have been a formidable rival because she had the jump repertoire to put them together in way that gets points, plus all the other points she would have racked for the quality of everything she did. Bottom line, I think they would have still gone into the 1992 Olympics as the two top skaters had COP been in place.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
That last picture is the one for me, Mathman. Mao's smile always makes me want to smile back. She's got so much personality. She reminds me of Irina in a way: both have that intrepid determination and are not easily discouraged, and both project an emotional forthrightness that draws people in. I'm so glad Mao's year ended so well. I hope next year is even better for her.
 

frodenofan30

Spectator
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Today I was just thinking about how skaters like Michelle, Irina, Midori and Kristi would have fared under today's system, and what their program layout would have looked like.

For example, I think Michelle's SP layout would have been something like:
3Lz-2T 7.2
3F 5.5
2A 3.5
Total base value of jumps: 15.2
(Point of comparison: Yu-Na's 2010 SP is at 18; Mao at 17.2; Rochette 15.2).

Michelle's LP would perhaps look something like this:
3T-3T 8.0 (Michelle could pull this off but never seemed to do so throughout her career; but I'm assuming that given her talents and shift to CoP scoring under our hypothetical circumstances, she would at least have a 3T-3T.)
3Lo 5.0
3F 5.5
3L-2T 7.2
3Sal 4.5
3L 6.0
2A 3.5
Total base value of jumps (without added past-halfway bonus): 39.7.
(Points of comparison: Yu-Na's 2010 LP: 42.2; Mao: 45.6).

Of course we're just talking about hypotheticals here, but I really do think that a Michelle in her prime and under CoP would have been able to do just as well, though I suspect we would have lost some of her amazing artistry under CoP. She would get consistent +1 GOE's on her jumps, even more for her spiral and her PCS would be great too.

What do you think? Am I living in ga-ga land?

Are you asking if she could beat Kim or Asada if either went clean? No way, and to a clean Kim a huge NO. Her base value as you show is lower than Kim and she would never match Kim's huge jump GOE, it would take someone like Ito or Harding in their prime to do that. Asada has a much higher base value as you showed and her jump GOE while nowhere near Kim's would atleast match Kwan's if not exceed as well. Kwan's spins are not better than either of these even if she could do all level 4 spins like both, and if she couldnt (and there is serious doubts if she could) then alot weaker in that case under COP scoring. You can only gain so many points on a spiral sequence and Kim and Asada both score high on that. As for PCS it is hard to see anyone getting higher PCS than Kim at the Olympics for example got.
 

youtubo

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
I hate someone comparing Yuna to some other athletes. Yuna is UNIQUE. She made history.
"Under this new way of evaluating skating and expecting so much from skaters, Yuna distanced herself from the field by the overall, endless quality of her excellence," Scott Hamilton, NBC.
 
Last edited:

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
I hate someone comparing Yuna to some other athletes. Yuna is UNIQUE. She made history.
"Under this new way of evaluating skating and expecting so much from skaters, Yuna distanced herself from the field by the overall, endless quality of her excellence," Scott Hamilton, NBC.

LOL. Aren't you also contributing to the comparisons? Also, you should expect many responses whenever it concerns the Kween. :biggrin: In my opinion, every skater is unique. I can give you an endless list of quotes from Dick Button about how unique and great Michelle was during her prime, but they're just too many to choose from~~^^
 

youtubo

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
LOL. Aren't you also contributing to the comparisons? Also, you should expect many responses whenever it concerns the Kween. :biggrin: In my opinion, every skater is unique. I can give you an endless list of quotes from Dick Button about how unique and great Michelle was during her prime, but they're just too many to choose from~~^^
Can you compare yourself with anyone?? I think you like to be compared with others.
 

aftertherain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
I hate someone comparing Yuna to some other athletes. Yuna is UNIQUE. She made history.
"Under this new way of evaluating skating and expecting so much from skaters, Yuna distanced herself from the field by the overall, endless quality of her excellence," Scott Hamilton, NBC.

You're being arrogant. Many other skaters have made history, and don't you forget that.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009

This was the first time I became really interested in Yuna. The commentators were all "Mao! Mao! Triple axel! Best 14 year old skater EVER! blah blah blah" and when Yuna came on it was "Oh, she has a nice 3lz and layback" but then Yuna came back the next year and beat Mao by 25 points :biggrin: AND had much more mature programs to boot.

Oh, and I guess Kwak loves Yuna so much that she chose an identical costume. http://www.content-corner.de/show/824215114/upload/Yu-Na Kim.jpg
http://photos.upi.com/slideshow/lbox/58ccafd2c66d9cb8202c2d9c0b61d894/2010-WInter-
Olympics.jpg

And exhibition piece
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Kim_Yu-Na_2007_Cup_of_Russia.jpg (Just a Girl)
http://pds15.egloos.com/pds/200908/03/76/b0041776_4a767d9dc626d.jpg (SuperGirl)

She's so cute :)
 
Last edited:

angelgem

Spectator
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
This is a great thread.I think its very hard to guess how some of the old greats would fair under cop but imo Gordeeva and Grinkov would be the ultimate pair team under this new system just as they were under 6.0.
 

youtubo

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
You're being arrogant. Many other skaters have made history, and don't you forget that.
First of all, I dont see why you need to call me "arrogant".
Did I say Yuna is the only lady who made history???
"don't you forget that" lol
 

aftertherain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
First of all, I dont see why you need to call me "arrogant".
Did I say Yuna is the only lady who made history???
"don't you forget that" lol
I hate someone comparing Yuna to some other athletes. Yuna is UNIQUE. She made history.

You sure implied it with your quote.

Appreciating Yuna is one thing, exalting Yuna in your own perspective by pushing down other skaters is another.
 
Top