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Thread: Hypothetically, how would past great skaters like Michelle fare in today's system?

  1. #46
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Are we trying to judge how Michelle etal would have fared had COP been in place in their time? i.e. if COP had been in place from 1996 to 2003 how would Michelle have fared competing against the same skaters she competed against?
    Or are we discussing how Michelle etal would have done today? I hope we're discussing the first because it seems more fair but I do see that some people are speculating on whether Michelle could beat Yuna Kim. To me whether Michelle could beat Yuna is not at all the same question as whether Michelle would have done well under COP.

    Personally, I don't think there is any reason to think Michelle wouldn't have done well under COP. A great skater is a great skater and Michelle pretty much had it all. We've seen that skaters who don't have a 3-3 can rank well under COP because GOE counts for a lot. Michelle had good GOE on jumps compared to most of the skaters she was competing against.

    We saw that Irina did well under the first version of COP

    I do wonder if Michellle would have had her streak of national titles and world champions. The results seem a lot more volatile under COP because of the strictness of edge calls and URs and sometimes a skater gets no credit for whole spin combination. I know in Yuna's case she only finishes out of the top when she skates exceptionally badly but if you look at other skaters like Mirai or Rachael, their placements really go up and down.
    I know Michelle was exceptionally competitive and consistent. And don't get me wrong, I think she deserved all her wins. But was it easier to finish 1st over and over again under 6.0.?

    Also, I think if COP had been in place in Midori's era she would have done pretty much the same. (leaving aside the question of figures.) Bottom line, her jumps were way ahead of anyone else so that would have given her huge points. Plus, I agree that Midori's spins were good enough that she could have put them together well enought to get points under COP. As for spirals, there are so many ugly spiral sequences these days that get level 4s I don't see how Midori would be penalized to harshly for her lack of flexibility. But Kristi would have been a formidable rival because she had the jump repertoire to put them together in way that gets points, plus all the other points she would have racked for the quality of everything she did. Bottom line, I think they would have still gone into the 1992 Olympics as the two top skaters had COP been in place.

  2. #47
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    I'm curious which picture that was.
    This isn't the exact picture, but it was along these lines.

    http://web-japan.org/kidsweb/archive...e_skating2.jpg

    While searching for this just now I also found:

    Mao accepts a bag of lego-goodies from adoring fans

    And

    Emily Hughes is delighted with her third-place finish at 2005 Junior Worlds, but Yu-na Kim's face says, "Wait till next year, chump."
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-05-2010 at 09:58 PM.

  3. #48
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    That last picture is the one for me, Mathman. Mao's smile always makes me want to smile back. She's got so much personality. She reminds me of Irina in a way: both have that intrepid determination and are not easily discouraged, and both project an emotional forthrightness that draws people in. I'm so glad Mao's year ended so well. I hope next year is even better for her.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrymeyunakim View Post
    Today I was just thinking about how skaters like Michelle, Irina, Midori and Kristi would have fared under today's system, and what their program layout would have looked like.

    For example, I think Michelle's SP layout would have been something like:
    3Lz-2T 7.2
    3F 5.5
    2A 3.5
    Total base value of jumps: 15.2
    (Point of comparison: Yu-Na's 2010 SP is at 18; Mao at 17.2; Rochette 15.2).

    Michelle's LP would perhaps look something like this:
    3T-3T 8.0 (Michelle could pull this off but never seemed to do so throughout her career; but I'm assuming that given her talents and shift to CoP scoring under our hypothetical circumstances, she would at least have a 3T-3T.)
    3Lo 5.0
    3F 5.5
    3L-2T 7.2
    3Sal 4.5
    3L 6.0
    2A 3.5
    Total base value of jumps (without added past-halfway bonus): 39.7.
    (Points of comparison: Yu-Na's 2010 LP: 42.2; Mao: 45.6).

    Of course we're just talking about hypotheticals here, but I really do think that a Michelle in her prime and under CoP would have been able to do just as well, though I suspect we would have lost some of her amazing artistry under CoP. She would get consistent +1 GOE's on her jumps, even more for her spiral and her PCS would be great too.

    What do you think? Am I living in ga-ga land?
    Are you asking if she could beat Kim or Asada if either went clean? No way, and to a clean Kim a huge NO. Her base value as you show is lower than Kim and she would never match Kim's huge jump GOE, it would take someone like Ito or Harding in their prime to do that. Asada has a much higher base value as you showed and her jump GOE while nowhere near Kim's would atleast match Kwan's if not exceed as well. Kwan's spins are not better than either of these even if she could do all level 4 spins like both, and if she couldnt (and there is serious doubts if she could) then alot weaker in that case under COP scoring. You can only gain so many points on a spiral sequence and Kim and Asada both score high on that. As for PCS it is hard to see anyone getting higher PCS than Kim at the Olympics for example got.

  5. #50
    Tripping on the Podium
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    I hate someone comparing Yuna to some other athletes. Yuna is UNIQUE. She made history.
    "Under this new way of evaluating skating and expecting so much from skaters, Yuna distanced herself from the field by the overall, endless quality of her excellence," Scott Hamilton, NBC.
    Last edited by youtubo; 04-05-2010 at 11:03 PM.

  6. #51
    Mashimaro on Ice
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    Quote Originally Posted by youtubo View Post
    I hate someone comparing Yuna to some other athletes. Yuna is UNIQUE. She made history.
    "Under this new way of evaluating skating and expecting so much from skaters, Yuna distanced herself from the field by the overall, endless quality of her excellence," Scott Hamilton, NBC.
    LOL. Aren't you also contributing to the comparisons? Also, you should expect many responses whenever it concerns the Kween. In my opinion, every skater is unique. I can give you an endless list of quotes from Dick Button about how unique and great Michelle was during her prime, but they're just too many to choose from~~^^

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    LOL. Aren't you also contributing to the comparisons? Also, you should expect many responses whenever it concerns the Kween. In my opinion, every skater is unique. I can give you an endless list of quotes from Dick Button about how unique and great Michelle was during her prime, but they're just too many to choose from~~^^
    Can you compare yourself with anyone?? I think you like to be compared with others.

  8. #53
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by youtubo View Post
    I hate someone comparing Yuna to some other athletes. Yuna is UNIQUE. She made history.
    "Under this new way of evaluating skating and expecting so much from skaters, Yuna distanced herself from the field by the overall, endless quality of her excellence," Scott Hamilton, NBC.
    You're being arrogant. Many other skaters have made history, and don't you forget that.

  10. #55
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    This was the first time I became really interested in Yuna. The commentators were all "Mao! Mao! Triple axel! Best 14 year old skater EVER! blah blah blah" and when Yuna came on it was "Oh, she has a nice 3lz and layback" but then Yuna came back the next year and beat Mao by 25 points AND had much more mature programs to boot.

    Oh, and I guess Kwak loves Yuna so much that she chose an identical costume. http://www.content-corner.de/show/82...u-Na%20Kim.jpg
    http://photos.upi.com/slideshow/lbox...4/2010-WInter-
    Olympics.jpg

    And exhibition piece
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._of_Russia.jpg (Just a Girl)
    http://pds15.egloos.com/pds/200908/0...67d9dc626d.jpg (SuperGirl)

    She's so cute
    Last edited by silverlake22; 04-06-2010 at 07:08 PM.

  11. #56
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    This is a great thread.I think its very hard to guess how some of the old greats would fair under cop but imo Gordeeva and Grinkov would be the ultimate pair team under this new system just as they were under 6.0.

  12. #57
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    You're being arrogant. Many other skaters have made history, and don't you forget that.
    First of all, I dont see why you need to call me "arrogant".
    Did I say Yuna is the only lady who made history???
    "don't you forget that" lol

  13. #58
    :) aftertherain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by youtubo View Post
    First of all, I dont see why you need to call me "arrogant".
    Did I say Yuna is the only lady who made history???
    "don't you forget that" lol
    I hate someone comparing Yuna to some other athletes. Yuna is UNIQUE. She made history.
    You sure implied it with your quote.

    Appreciating Yuna is one thing, exalting Yuna in your own perspective by pushing down other skaters is another.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    You sure implied it with your quote.

    Appreciating Yuna is one thing, exalting Yuna in your own perspective by pushing down other skaters is another.
    Do i have to keep arguing with your nonsense thoughts?

  15. #60
    :) aftertherain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by youtubo View Post
    Do i have to keep arguing with your nonsense thoughts?
    We're arguing? Hardly.

    And nonsense? You wish.

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