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Thread: Ina Bauer into a 2A

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    Ina Bauer into a 2A

    My friends and I had a little discussion on some technical stuff. Could experts here help elucidate? Some of my questions may be rather elementary, but please humor me.

    1) Ina bauer into a 2A: Yu-na's known for doing this. I've noticed that some athletes change feet right before the jump, while Yu-na jumps right into it. I've heard that this move is difficult and thus garners more points because the skater's right leg is far from the takeoff point. Could someone explain the mecahnics? Hypothetically, if two skaters' 2As were both of equal quality, but one was more flexible in executing the ina bauer but changed feet and the other didn't, who would get greater GOE? Shouldn't GOE be based on the jump itself? Isn't interesting transition into a jump simply one checkpoint for GOE? Let's then say the 2As were both great, the ina bauers equally flexible, but one changed feet and the other didn't. Who should get greater GOE? I thought it would be the latter. And forgive my being skeptical, but would judges even notice?

    2) An ina baur in itself: Where should it be rewarded? Performance (probably with Shizuka's , which was both climactic and gorgeous) ? Skating skills?

    3) A possible correlation between extreme flexibility and poor jumps: This is just a casual observation.Famously flexible skaters (Sasha Cohen, CaroZ, Oksana Baiul, etc.) often seem to have problems with jumps. By this, I don't necessarily mean edge, UR issues (which some indeed do have), but speed, ice coverage, position and in particular height. Do you think there may be some correlation? There was some discussion on this, but I forgot exactly where. I've noticed that the sturdy physique a la Tonya Harding and Midori Ito tend to breed the best jumpers, who are often very lacking in flexibility. Joannie, for example, can't do a bielmann*. Is the explanation very simple and boils down to simple strength or is there a possible explanation in air position (how upright one is in air)?

    * In an article, Joannie said, "I can do a Biellmann, but not very gracefully and it hurts my back. If I try too much, I can't skate for a week. My body is more explosive muscle fiber. I'm not very flexible." http://www.skatetoday.com/news-34-0-0-0--.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
    Hypothetically, if two skaters' 2As were both of equal quality, but one was more flexible in executing the ina bauer but changed feet and the other didn't, who would get greater GOE? Shouldn't GOE be based on the jump itself? Isn't interesting transition into a jump simply one checkpoint for GOE? Let's then say the 2As were both great, the ina bauers equally flexible, but one changed feet and the other didn't. Who should get greater GOE? I thought it would be the latter. And forgive my being skeptical, but would judges even notice?
    My guess is that most judges wouldn't notice the difference and they would just give the extra bullet point to both skaters. I suppose if the final GOE were borderline between +1 and +2 or between 0 and +1, the one who made the transition from Ina bauer into the jump look smoother and more seamless would be more likely to get the higher GOE.

    2) An ina baur in itself: Where should it be rewarded? Performance (probably with Shizuka's , which was both climactic and gorgeous) ? Skating skills?
    You mean one that doesn't lead directly into an element? I think it would still count primarily under Transitions, but it would only contribute to the variety, difficulty, and quality of the transitions, not to the intricacy if it's not connected to other moves.

    If it's beautiful (or, alternatively, if the skater obviously seems to struggle with it), then I'd think it would count positively (or negatively) under Performance/Execution.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I think an Ina Bauer is misplaced in the Transition catergory. (I'm sure the stick-to-the-Rules' fans wont see it that way.) It's a very difficult move to point your skates in opposite polar directions and glide across the ice.
    Only the diehard Rules fans would not see that because it has the same value of simple spread eagle.
    It is a beautiful 4th position ballet move. To add a back bend, it would be just that more of a beauty but only if the skates remain on the ice in that 4th position whle back is bended.

    To use it as a connection to another element such as a jump, one must do the jump from Ina Bauer position, and not rise to do the jump separately.

    You do remember that young man frm the midwest who left skating for higher learning. He used to do a shoot-the-duck, then rise completely and do a double axel. There was no connection to th duck. They were two separate items not connected. The back bend Bauers are much more beautiful

    The Ina Bauer should be looked at again. Imo, it beats those ugly spirals.

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    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I think an Ina Bauer is misplaced in the Transition catergory. (I'm sure the stick-to-the-Rules' fans wont see it that way.) It's a very difficult move to point your skates in opposite polar directions and glide across the ice.
    Only the diehard Rules fans would not see that because it has the same value of simple spread eagle.
    It is a beautiful 4th position ballet move. To add a back bend, it would be just that more of a beauty but only if the skates remain on the ice in that 4th position whle back is bended.

    To use it as a connection to another element such as a jump, one must do the jump from Ina Bauer position, and not rise to do the jump separately.

    You do remember that young man frm the midwest who left skating for higher learning. He used to do a shoot-the-duck, then rise completely and do a double axel. There was no connection to th duck. They were two separate items not connected. The back bend Bauers are much more beautiful

    The Ina Bauer should be looked at again. Imo, it beats those ugly spirals.
    Wow, nice post! I agree with the ugly spirals bit, that's for sure and that it shouldn't have the same value as the SP.

    Interesting about how what should be considered a true transition too. Frank Carroll said he urged Mirai not to slow down between her IB and 2a and said she couldn't quite get it. I wonder if he met going directly from the IB position into the jump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    It's a very difficult move to point your skates in opposite polar directions and glide across the ice
    If the skater is born with open hips, spread eagles and bauers actually come rather naturally, however adding the layback position requires much much more control. Of course, doing it at the elite skaters' speed, position, and deep edges is whole another story, Love the following video!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBeW488t4io

    He used to do a shoot-the-duck, then rise completely and do a double axel. There was no connection to the duck.
    Wow who is this?

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    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    The Midwestern male skater is Matt Savoie. He was under appreciated as a skater and had many awesome transitions into and out of his elements (he would have been a great IJS skater). He actually didn't do a shoot the duck, he did a hydroblade complete with body pulled tight in to the ice into his 3Lz or 3F (depending ont he chosen hydroblade he was doing - inner or outer).

    An ina bauer, even bent back is not that difficult an element if you have natural hip turn out in the same way a spread eagle is not. It's a good collection point in a program where a skater can get a good breath and show off something "pretty" to collect transition points/garner GOEs. I'd rather see the spiral sequence become a MIF sequence for ladies because I think a lot of great potential connecting steps are going unscored and therefore are under utilized (spread eagles, ina bauers, hydroblades); but that could also be because it would benefit me because I have a better bauer and spread eagle than spirals.

    The bauer into 2A is difficult because of the change of balance point of upper body and weight distribution between the Bauer and the 2A. Also, some people need to change feet between the two because their "good" Bauer is on the "wrong foot" to step right into an Axel (a CCW skater bauer-ing with the right foot in front). As long as it is seemless, it will receive the difficult entry bullet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
    3) A possible correlation between extreme flexibility and poor jumps: This is just a casual observation.Famously flexible skaters (Sasha Cohen, CaroZ, Oksana Baiul, etc.) often seem to have problems with jumps. By this, I don't necessarily mean edge, UR issues (which some indeed do have), but speed, ice coverage, position and in particular height. Do you think there may be some correlation? There was some discussion on this, but I forgot exactly where. I've noticed that the sturdy physique a la Tonya Harding and Midori Ito tend to breed the best jumpers, who are often very lacking in flexibility. Joannie, for example, can't do a bielmann*. Is the explanation very simple and boils down to simple strength or is there a possible explanation in air position (how upright one is in air)?

    * In an article, Joannie said, "I can do a Biellmann, but not very gracefully and it hurts my back. If I try too much, I can't skate for a week. My body is more explosive muscle fiber. I'm not very flexible." http://www.skatetoday.com/news-34-0-0-0--.html
    I read that, too, in magazines featuring skating, saying that flexibility makes it more difficult to center a solid axis. I do not know if this is an authentic theory though.

    (As a very low-level skater, I recall having been told by one of my coaches that I was too flexible and too soft to jump well, but that might have been something different, too.)

    Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, and Joannie all seem muscular and have power. But most elite skaters seem both flexible and powerful to some extent. To do a Biellmann, you gotta be super flexible from the standard of ordinary female adults.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjane45 View Post
    If the skater is born with open hips, spread eagles and bauers actually come rather naturally, however adding the layback position requires much much more control. Of course, doing it at the elite skaters' speed, position, and deep edges is whole another story, Love the following video!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBeW488t4io
    Wow who is this?
    Matt, as you know by now, was a fine skater. His hyrdoblade trick would last till he got up totally and out of the hydroblade, pause and wait for the moment to jump, a la Surya Bonaly.

    Imo, it was 2 separate moves. A connection from MIF to a Jump ought to be done withoug leaving the MIF by itself. Kind of like, combos.

    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    The Midwestern male skater is Matt Savoie. He was under appreciated as a skater and had many awesome transitions into and out of his elements (he would have been a great IJS skater). He actually didn't do a shoot the duck, he did a hydroblade complete with body pulled tight in to the ice into his 3Lz or 3F (depending ont he chosen hydroblade he was doing - inner or outer).

    An ina bauer, even bent back is not that difficult an element if you have natural hip turn out in the same way a spread eagle is not. It's a good collection point in a program where a skater can get a good breath and show off something "pretty" to collect transition points/garner GOEs. I'd rather see the spiral sequence become a MIF sequence for ladies because I think a lot of great potential connecting steps are going unscored and therefore are und utilized (spread eagles, ina bauers, hydroblades); but that could also be because it would benefit me because I have a better bauer and spread eagle than spirals.

    The bauer into 2A is difficult because of the change of balance point of upper body and weight distribution between the Bauer and the 2A. Also, some people need to change feet between the two because their "good" Bauer is on the "wrong foot" to step right into an Axel (a CCW skater bauer-ing with the right foot in front). As long as it is seemless, it will receive the difficult entry bullet.
    and YES, SEAMLESS is the word. And cheers for suggesting Spirals should be moved into the MIF category. A senior skater who can't do spirals should not be in Seniors.

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    Thanks everyone for your input. I've learned a lot. I will check out Matt Savoie's transitions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Only the diehard Rules fans would not see that because it has the same value of simple spread eagle.
    And how many points is that, exactly? BTW, it's true that an Ina Bauer is not that difficult for someone with open hips. I could do an outside Ina Bauer before I could land a single axel.
    Last edited by vlaurend; 04-09-2010 at 11:27 PM.

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    not talking about CoP points. Talking about an MIF, and suggesting that Spirals are no problems for senior skaters. Spirals, ina bauers, spread eages and sweeping Rockers and Counters are all Moves In The Field. At the senior level and particularly those who are listed in the ISU's top twenty skaters, should make these moves into beautiful connections - not necessarily into Jumps - but to give the semblance of choreography and musicality throughout the Programs.

    All the skaters who had to do School Figures had no problems with the MIFs because they had the proper edges from their work on school figures.

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    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Actually, the top 20 on the ISU list are good at choosing transitions that they are good at and incorporating them into their programs. Not everyone is good at spirals (especially the men), not everyone is open hipped (so not everyone does bauers and spread eagles), not everyone has awesome quad muscles (so not everyone does hydroblades), not everyone likes counters or rockers, not everyone likes toe steps, and so on. The best programs are the ones that highlight what the skater does well as in betweens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Actually, the top 20 on the ISU list are good at choosing transitions that they are good at and incorporating them into their programs. Not everyone is good at spirals (especially the men), not everyone is open hipped (so not everyone does bauers and spread eagles), not everyone has awesome quad muscles (so not everyone does hydroblades), not everyone likes counters or rockers, not everyone likes toe steps, and so on. The best programs are the ones that highlight what the skater does well as in betweens.
    I wish that's the case for all of them but it ain't so. Some skaters, especially certain Europeans who shall remain nameless, do almost nothing except the required elements.

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    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Ya got me there...LOL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Actually, the top 20 on the ISU list are good at choosing transitions that they are good at and incorporating them into their programs. Not everyone is good at spirals (especially the men), not everyone is open hipped (so not everyone does bauers and spread eagles), not everyone has awesome quad muscles (so not everyone does hydroblades), not everyone likes counters or rockers, not everyone likes toe steps, and so on. The best programs are the ones that highlight what the skater does well as in betweens.
    Over extended Flexibility and Open Hips may make a figure skating move look prettier, but they are not in the Rule Book. They are basic acrobatics! The height of the free leg in Spirals are not an exception. The edges of spirals, ina bauers, spread eagles and hydroblading are where blades meet ice and should be judged accordingly. How pretty they are, are in the mind of the spectator. Do you realize a spectator must sit through 3 spirals in the SP and then the same 3 again in the LP? Why can't they be used choreographically and placed separately in a program to separate sections of music?

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