Ina Bauer into a 2A | Golden Skate

Ina Bauer into a 2A

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
My friends and I had a little discussion on some technical stuff. Could experts here help elucidate? Some of my questions may be rather elementary, but please humor me.

1) Ina bauer into a 2A: Yu-na's known for doing this. I've noticed that some athletes change feet right before the jump, while Yu-na jumps right into it. I've heard that this move is difficult and thus garners more points because the skater's right leg is far from the takeoff point. Could someone explain the mecahnics? Hypothetically, if two skaters' 2As were both of equal quality, but one was more flexible in executing the ina bauer but changed feet and the other didn't, who would get greater GOE? Shouldn't GOE be based on the jump itself? Isn't interesting transition into a jump simply one checkpoint for GOE? Let's then say the 2As were both great, the ina bauers equally flexible, but one changed feet and the other didn't. Who should get greater GOE? I thought it would be the latter. And forgive my being skeptical, but would judges even notice?

2) An ina baur in itself: Where should it be rewarded? Performance (probably with Shizuka's :love:, which was both climactic and gorgeous) ? Skating skills?

3) A possible correlation between extreme flexibility and poor jumps: This is just a casual observation.Famously flexible skaters (Sasha Cohen, CaroZ, Oksana Baiul, etc.) often seem to have problems with jumps. By this, I don't necessarily mean edge, UR issues (which some indeed do have), but speed, ice coverage, position and in particular height. Do you think there may be some correlation? There was some discussion on this, but I forgot exactly where. I've noticed that the sturdy physique a la Tonya Harding and Midori Ito tend to breed the best jumpers, who are often very lacking in flexibility. Joannie, for example, can't do a bielmann*. Is the explanation very simple and boils down to simple strength or is there a possible explanation in air position (how upright one is in air)?

* In an article, Joannie said, "I can do a Biellmann, but not very gracefully and it hurts my back. If I try too much, I can't skate for a week. My body is more explosive muscle fiber. I'm not very flexible." http://www.skatetoday.com/news-34-0-0-0--.html
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Hypothetically, if two skaters' 2As were both of equal quality, but one was more flexible in executing the ina bauer but changed feet and the other didn't, who would get greater GOE? Shouldn't GOE be based on the jump itself? Isn't interesting transition into a jump simply one checkpoint for GOE? Let's then say the 2As were both great, the ina bauers equally flexible, but one changed feet and the other didn't. Who should get greater GOE? I thought it would be the latter. And forgive my being skeptical, but would judges even notice?

My guess is that most judges wouldn't notice the difference and they would just give the extra bullet point to both skaters. I suppose if the final GOE were borderline between +1 and +2 or between 0 and +1, the one who made the transition from Ina bauer into the jump look smoother and more seamless would be more likely to get the higher GOE.

2) An ina baur in itself: Where should it be rewarded? Performance (probably with Shizuka's :love:, which was both climactic and gorgeous) ? Skating skills?

You mean one that doesn't lead directly into an element? I think it would still count primarily under Transitions, but it would only contribute to the variety, difficulty, and quality of the transitions, not to the intricacy if it's not connected to other moves.

If it's beautiful (or, alternatively, if the skater obviously seems to struggle with it), then I'd think it would count positively (or negatively) under Performance/Execution.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I think an Ina Bauer is misplaced in the Transition catergory. (I'm sure the stick-to-the-Rules' fans wont see it that way.) It's a very difficult move to point your skates in opposite polar directions and glide across the ice.
Only the diehard Rules fans would not see that because it has the same value of simple spread eagle.
It is a beautiful 4th position ballet move. To add a back bend, it would be just that more of a beauty but only if the skates remain on the ice in that 4th position whle back is bended.

To use it as a connection to another element such as a jump, one must do the jump from Ina Bauer position, and not rise to do the jump separately.

You do remember that young man frm the midwest who left skating for higher learning. He used to do a shoot-the-duck, then rise completely and do a double axel. There was no connection to th duck. They were two separate items not connected. The back bend Bauers are much more beautiful

The Ina Bauer should be looked at again. Imo, it beats those ugly spirals.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
I think an Ina Bauer is misplaced in the Transition catergory. (I'm sure the stick-to-the-Rules' fans wont see it that way.) It's a very difficult move to point your skates in opposite polar directions and glide across the ice.
Only the diehard Rules fans would not see that because it has the same value of simple spread eagle.
It is a beautiful 4th position ballet move. To add a back bend, it would be just that more of a beauty but only if the skates remain on the ice in that 4th position whle back is bended.

To use it as a connection to another element such as a jump, one must do the jump from Ina Bauer position, and not rise to do the jump separately.

You do remember that young man frm the midwest who left skating for higher learning. He used to do a shoot-the-duck, then rise completely and do a double axel. There was no connection to th duck. They were two separate items not connected. The back bend Bauers are much more beautiful

The Ina Bauer should be looked at again. Imo, it beats those ugly spirals.

Wow, nice post! I agree with the ugly spirals bit, that's for sure and that it shouldn't have the same value as the SP.

Interesting about how what should be considered a true transition too. Frank Carroll said he urged Mirai not to slow down between her IB and 2a and said she couldn't quite get it. I wonder if he met going directly from the IB position into the jump.
 

jjane45

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
It's a very difficult move to point your skates in opposite polar directions and glide across the ice
If the skater is born with open hips, spread eagles and bauers actually come rather naturally, however adding the layback position requires much much more control. Of course, doing it at the elite skaters' speed, position, and deep edges is whole another story, Love the following video! ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBeW488t4io

He used to do a shoot-the-duck, then rise completely and do a double axel. There was no connection to the duck.
Wow who is this?
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
The Midwestern male skater is Matt Savoie. He was under appreciated as a skater and had many awesome transitions into and out of his elements (he would have been a great IJS skater). He actually didn't do a shoot the duck, he did a hydroblade complete with body pulled tight in to the ice into his 3Lz or 3F (depending ont he chosen hydroblade he was doing - inner or outer).

An ina bauer, even bent back is not that difficult an element if you have natural hip turn out in the same way a spread eagle is not. It's a good collection point in a program where a skater can get a good breath and show off something "pretty" to collect transition points/garner GOEs. I'd rather see the spiral sequence become a MIF sequence for ladies because I think a lot of great potential connecting steps are going unscored and therefore are under utilized (spread eagles, ina bauers, hydroblades); but that could also be because it would benefit me because I have a better bauer and spread eagle than spirals.

The bauer into 2A is difficult because of the change of balance point of upper body and weight distribution between the Bauer and the 2A. Also, some people need to change feet between the two because their "good" Bauer is on the "wrong foot" to step right into an Axel (a CCW skater bauer-ing with the right foot in front). As long as it is seemless, it will receive the difficult entry bullet.
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
3) A possible correlation between extreme flexibility and poor jumps: This is just a casual observation.Famously flexible skaters (Sasha Cohen, CaroZ, Oksana Baiul, etc.) often seem to have problems with jumps. By this, I don't necessarily mean edge, UR issues (which some indeed do have), but speed, ice coverage, position and in particular height. Do you think there may be some correlation? There was some discussion on this, but I forgot exactly where. I've noticed that the sturdy physique a la Tonya Harding and Midori Ito tend to breed the best jumpers, who are often very lacking in flexibility. Joannie, for example, can't do a bielmann*. Is the explanation very simple and boils down to simple strength or is there a possible explanation in air position (how upright one is in air)?

* In an article, Joannie said, "I can do a Biellmann, but not very gracefully and it hurts my back. If I try too much, I can't skate for a week. My body is more explosive muscle fiber. I'm not very flexible." http://www.skatetoday.com/news-34-0-0-0--.html

I read that, too, in magazines featuring skating, saying that flexibility makes it more difficult to center a solid axis. I do not know if this is an authentic theory though.

(As a very low-level skater, I recall having been told by one of my coaches that I was too flexible and too soft to jump well, but that might have been something different, too.)

Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, and Joannie all seem muscular and have power. But most elite skaters seem both flexible and powerful to some extent. To do a Biellmann, you gotta be super flexible from the standard of ordinary female adults.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
If the skater is born with open hips, spread eagles and bauers actually come rather naturally, however adding the layback position requires much much more control. Of course, doing it at the elite skaters' speed, position, and deep edges is whole another story, Love the following video! ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBeW488t4io
Wow who is this?
Matt, as you know by now, was a fine skater. His hyrdoblade trick would last till he got up totally and out of the hydroblade, pause and wait for the moment to jump, a la Surya Bonaly.

Imo, it was 2 separate moves. A connection from MIF to a Jump ought to be done withoug leaving the MIF by itself. Kind of like, combos.

The Midwestern male skater is Matt Savoie. He was under appreciated as a skater and had many awesome transitions into and out of his elements (he would have been a great IJS skater). He actually didn't do a shoot the duck, he did a hydroblade complete with body pulled tight in to the ice into his 3Lz or 3F (depending ont he chosen hydroblade he was doing - inner or outer).

An ina bauer, even bent back is not that difficult an element if you have natural hip turn out in the same way a spread eagle is not. It's a good collection point in a program where a skater can get a good breath and show off something "pretty" to collect transition points/garner GOEs. I'd rather see the spiral sequence become a MIF sequence for ladies because I think a lot of great potential connecting steps are going unscored and therefore are und utilized (spread eagles, ina bauers, hydroblades); but that could also be because it would benefit me because I have a better bauer and spread eagle than spirals.

The bauer into 2A is difficult because of the change of balance point of upper body and weight distribution between the Bauer and the 2A. Also, some people need to change feet between the two because their "good" Bauer is on the "wrong foot" to step right into an Axel (a CCW skater bauer-ing with the right foot in front). As long as it is seemless, it will receive the difficult entry bullet.
and YES, SEAMLESS is the word. And cheers for suggesting Spirals should be moved into the MIF category. A senior skater who can't do spirals should not be in Seniors.
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Thanks everyone for your input. I've learned a lot. I will check out Matt Savoie's transitions.
 

vlaurend

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Only the diehard Rules fans would not see that because it has the same value of simple spread eagle.

And how many points is that, exactly? ;) BTW, it's true that an Ina Bauer is not that difficult for someone with open hips. I could do an outside Ina Bauer before I could land a single axel.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
not talking about CoP points. Talking about an MIF, and suggesting that Spirals are no problems for senior skaters. Spirals, ina bauers, spread eages and sweeping Rockers and Counters are all Moves In The Field. At the senior level and particularly those who are listed in the ISU's top twenty skaters, should make these moves into beautiful connections - not necessarily into Jumps - but to give the semblance of choreography and musicality throughout the Programs.

All the skaters who had to do School Figures had no problems with the MIFs because they had the proper edges from their work on school figures.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Actually, the top 20 on the ISU list are good at choosing transitions that they are good at and incorporating them into their programs. Not everyone is good at spirals (especially the men), not everyone is open hipped (so not everyone does bauers and spread eagles), not everyone has awesome quad muscles (so not everyone does hydroblades), not everyone likes counters or rockers, not everyone likes toe steps, and so on. The best programs are the ones that highlight what the skater does well as in betweens.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Actually, the top 20 on the ISU list are good at choosing transitions that they are good at and incorporating them into their programs. Not everyone is good at spirals (especially the men), not everyone is open hipped (so not everyone does bauers and spread eagles), not everyone has awesome quad muscles (so not everyone does hydroblades), not everyone likes counters or rockers, not everyone likes toe steps, and so on. The best programs are the ones that highlight what the skater does well as in betweens.

I wish that's the case for all of them but it ain't so. Some skaters, especially certain Europeans who shall remain nameless, do almost nothing except the required elements.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Actually, the top 20 on the ISU list are good at choosing transitions that they are good at and incorporating them into their programs. Not everyone is good at spirals (especially the men), not everyone is open hipped (so not everyone does bauers and spread eagles), not everyone has awesome quad muscles (so not everyone does hydroblades), not everyone likes counters or rockers, not everyone likes toe steps, and so on. The best programs are the ones that highlight what the skater does well as in betweens.
Over extended Flexibility and Open Hips may make a figure skating move look prettier, but they are not in the Rule Book. They are basic acrobatics! The height of the free leg in Spirals are not an exception. The edges of spirals, ina bauers, spread eagles and hydroblading are where blades meet ice and should be judged accordingly. How pretty they are, are in the mind of the spectator. Do you realize a spectator must sit through 3 spirals in the SP and then the same 3 again in the LP? Why can't they be used choreographically and placed separately in a program to separate sections of music?
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I read that, too, in magazines featuring skating, saying that flexibility makes it more difficult to center a solid axis. I do not know if this is an authentic theory though.

(As a very low-level skater, I recall having been told by one of my coaches that I was too flexible and too soft to jump well, but that might have been something different, too.)

Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, and Joannie all seem muscular and have power. But most elite skaters seem both flexible and powerful to some extent. To do a Biellmann, you gotta be super flexible from the standard of ordinary female adults.

Well, Irina Slutskaya was a powerful jumper who was also quite flexible and surely did a lot of catchfoot moves of various sorts.

Michelle Kwan, OTOH, was not very flexible.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
That's really another topic. FLEXIBILITY. It's not in the Rules, afaik.
What fans of figure skating see are body contortions which are left over from childhood. Flexibility is what an Orthopedist would look for when treating patients having trouble walking, running, lifting - anything related to muscles.

For the skating fan, it is putting a leg up higher than her competitor, or pull her leg up in front of her while spinning. Ballerinas all have arabesques with the free leg in position from low, medium and highest, and most can go beyond that. But for them it's the choreography that matters. Pulling up a leg in the "I" position while spinning is pure acrobatics as is tap dancing on roller skates.
The difference in the "i" spin and a ballerina's is that the ballerina is on toe and does NOT use her hands to pull it up to position and her partner will hold his hand with her for balance. I would be impressed if the free leg got to the"I" position without the use of the skater's hands. WOW.
 

jjane45

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
I would be impressed if the free leg got to the "I" position without the use of the skater's hands. WOW.
I suspect it's not impossible for a selected few, lol of course skates weigh quite a few pounds more than pointe shoes!
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Pulling up a leg in the "I" position while spinning is pure acrobatics as is tap dancing on roller skates.
The difference in the "i" spin and a ballerina's is that the ballerina is on toe and does NOT use her hands to pull it up to position and her partner will hold his hand with her for balance. I would be impressed if the free leg got to the"I" position without the use of the skater's hands. WOW.

Actually, pulling up a leg in the I position while spinning is also an exercise in balance beyond flexibility or acrobatics as you call it.

While spinning, it would be almost impossible to get to the I position without the use of arms due to the physics of centripetal force.

With regard to the spirals being disbursed throughout the program, that doesn't meet the rule requirements and losing between 2 and 3.5 points for the element and an addition -1 in the SP for failure to attempt all the requirements would really suck.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Actually, pulling up a leg in the I position while spinning is also an exercise in balance beyond flexibility or acrobatics as you call it.

While spinning, it would be almost impossible to get to the I position without the use of arms due to the physics of centripetal force.

With regard to the spirals being disbursed throughout the program, that doesn't meet the rule requirements and losing between 2 and 3.5 points for the element and an addition -1 in the SP for failure to attempt all the requirements would really suck.
I agree about the I spin but that doesn't make me like it as having beautiful line. For me, it's everyday acrobatic tricks. Just not impressed. Prefer Butryskaya's Camel Spins.

Spirals and the Rules are well known. If the Rules would put Spirals in MIF where they belong, it would improve choreography.
 
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