Are V/M really the best ever or even best Canadian Ice dance team?
I say not yet.
Yeah yeah yeah, Torvill/Dean who skated like a real "normal" team before the frantic/crazy/dying on ice/hideous costume/ugly moves became high "art" in ice dance. Loved them, Bolero was very unique but think B/K were the better/more technical skaters.
I think Riverdance deserved a gold medal in Nagano. And They skated so amazingly so often they should have won more than one world Championship. I don't know what ice dance devotees know. I just know that I loved, T/D, Roca/Sur, B/K and now the top two teams in the world give me hope that truly beautiful artistry is trumping ugly, "innovative" gratuitous lifts, etc.
I can now enjoy Ice dance again because all the others will try to emulate the two great n/american teams. If someone can explain to me technically or artistically what is so superior about v/m over b/k, I'd like to know.
I think Bourne/ Kraatz were the best I have ever seen and were Ice dance not so corrupt and russian controlled at ISU level under 6.0 when skaters had to wait to move up, they would have won a slew of medals. Am I wrong?
I think so (that you're wrong). I like B/K quite a bit, though. I'm interested in what others say here.
Originally Posted by Bijoux
Riverdance was a fun FD, but gold medal material? It was very entertaining but IIRC, technically lacking. Olympic bronze would be more like it.
I won't say V/M is the best ever in the world but I think they are best ever Canadian ice dance team. I loved B/K. They were the pair who drew me into ice dance, and I loved their Riverdance so much. But I think V/M are better at unison. They've truly reached two skating like one. Also, even though I can't pinpoint exactly, I feel that V/M's programs are more difficult, technically more demanding than B/K's.
Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program
I do think Virtue and Moir are. I have not lived through that much ice dance but compared with the last 10 years of olympic and world champions they are the best for me. Torivill and Dean completely changed the sport so I can't put them down in anyway, they made it what it is today. They certainly win overall for innovation, daring, musicality (that they chreographed their own pieces certainly makes it that much more impressive). Bur for technique, unity, chemistry I give it to Virtue and Moir.
I think B/K were better. They just had tougher competition to me. I also enjoy D/L more.
Originally Posted by lavender
Umm, completely in disagreement. B/K while very good, lacked many things. In their earlier years. Shae had a bad posture, their free leg unison was not at par with their top competitors, expression wise, they lacked most of the time expressing the right character of the dance. I will never forget they smiled all the way through their tango in Lausanne.And by the way, Riverdance"looked" difficult, wasn't exactly that difficult. They improved once they worked with Tarasova and Morozov. D /L also were having many weaknesses, their lifts were indeed the best in the bunch, but if you took them separetely, their individual edging was quite weak. Their twizzles were actually three turns, and I was holding my breath over their midline step sequence, waiting for an imminent mistake. Scott and Tessa are the best canadian ice dance team, the best matched, equally.good.
I agree with you here. Especially about the new dance direction, though I am not sure it will stay in that direction, in light of the fact that the next Olympics will be in Russia. I totally agree with you about the corruption part.
Originally Posted by Bijoux
I don't know if B/K were better than what V/M is now. I definitely would have said yes before I saw V/M reach many moments in Vancouver in both short and long that is so perfect, so sublime, etheral, that I have seen in all great figure skating, no matter what discipline, Torville and Dean in Dance, Gordeeva and Grinkov in pairs and Michelle Kwan in Ladies. You can't put a finger on it, you just feel it when you see it. I don't remember feeling that with B/K even in River Dance. Incidently, Belbin and Agasto's Boldavian dance reminded me of B/K and their River Dance. There were lot of good moves in it and some of them difficult and they were right into it, but they never reached that magic moment when amazing level of technical prowess marries the artistry. When you know an olympic athlete has achieved something that a mere mortal can't get to by years of training and deepest understanding of figure skating artistry.
I do definitely think if B/K skated under this scoring system, they would have done better since they would have garnered points for each element they would have reached and not get stuck on "hurry up and wait' ranking system rut they were stuck in for like 10 years.
I think that V/M is far superior to B/K. They have super skating skills, nothing to hide.
B/K had quite a few weaknesses, but they always had a good choreography to try to hide them. They also been a bit frantic and overacting. V/M in the contrary NEVER overreacted anything. Their style always was as natural as they were live their life on the ice.
Debreuil/Lauzon had a beautiful natural style, fantastic lifts and great choreography to hide the weaknesses and show all the benefits of them. They have been touching in many times, but technically they have been the weakest one's out of these 3.
Torvil/Dean are out of this picture. They made ice dancing what it is now. They CREATED their own choreography.
V/M are perfect actors, T/D were perfect dramaturgists, directors AND actors. Such a big difference.
Torvil-Dean worked together like Virtue/Moir AND Schpilband/Zueva could do.
T/D's coach, Betty Callaway was a fantastic technical coach, but never was a super talented choreographer or so ( look at her other WorldChampion team Regőczy-Sallay. They have been brilliat technical skaters, but never reached the level of Torvil-Dean, because of their choreo.)
Last edited by bigdeal; 04-06-2010 at 03:44 AM.
B-K was my favorite ice dance team during long time, but they didnt have such musical quality, super edges, like Tessa and Scott have (IMHO).
For comparation you need to watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKf390pbQcc (or V-M FD from OG)
I think now ice dance skate in different stylwe, then it was in B-K times
Dedicated follower of the black line
I like V&M better than B&K. But V&M is not at T&D's level. Yet. My hope is they will stay around and both they and D&W will surpass T&D. Both teams have the capacity to be the best ever. T&D had no real competition. V&M and D&W can push each other.
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I think Virtue & Moir are definitely better than Dubreuil & Lauzon. I watched Dubreuil & Lauzon's At Last to compare. I think that Bourne & Kraatz were equally as good as Virtue & Moir, TECHNICALLY, and if they skated under the current system they might be just as successful as Virtue & Moir. However, I don't think Bourne & Kraatz relate as well as Virtue & Moir on the ice. They're missing the emotional connection. I think they are very similar to Belbin & Agosto. Btw, am I the only one who doesn't think Riverdance was Bourne & Kraatz's best program? I think their later programs, like their Michael Jackson FD and Hey Big Spender OD were far superior technically to Riverdance which is a nice program but lacks some difficult technical content.
In terms of Canada, I thin V&M are the best. No one has mentioned Wilson and McCall, but I would put them ahead of B&K. Wilson&McCall were a wonderful team. They definitely suffered from the lack of movement characteristic in ice dancing at the time. B&K were overrated. I did love Riverdance, but they did a lot of skating in one spot, and dancing beside each other with their hands on each other's shoulders. I think that's probably the easiest type of hold dancers could do. They didn't deserve the OGM in '98, because they had a terrible OD and messed up a CD. They were out of it even before the FD, and I think A&P had a better FD.
B&K always had the same expression, no matter what they skated to. They also felt the need to add too much hydroblading in their routines. If they wanted to throw it into every FD, fine. But seeing hydroblading in their OD waltz in '99 was ridiculous. I don't think their connection to each other was as strong as V&M, W&M or D&L. I also think B&K were occasionally gifted in competition. A&P should have beaten them for bronze in '96. B&K had home ice advantage in Edmonton.
D&L did have great lifts and interaction between them, but their basic skating skills seemed the weakest of all four teams I've listed. Wilson&McCall had great skills, great interplay between them, and could skate to many different types of music. The skating skills of V&M are extraordinary. They have great interaction and wonderful lifts, but I'd like to see them show more versatility in their FD programs. I think they are one of the ten best ever, but they are not tops on the international list.
Wicked Yankee Girl
IMO, V&M are clearly better than B&K and D&L technically. Heck, D&L did 3 turns instead of twizzles in one or the 2 directions their whole career. Their strengths were an ability to portray romance on ice, and to do difficult lifts, aided by the fact that she was small and he was big. V&M are as good at the romance and better at the lifts, especially because they are more equal in size, so its more challenging. B&K's Riverdance timing wasn't on the beat. Compare Riverdance to V&M's Olympic flamenco, another dance with fast beats-V&M compensated decently, B&K didn't. Plus compare the Golden Waltzes of the 2 teams. B&K had a significant problem with keeping matching legline. V&M so far have showed a rather limited range of music and emotion-mostly because they are young, the OD's are pre-determined, and they have had to deal with injury. Even with that proviso, they are better than B&K and D&L. Wilson and McCall, it's a tougher call.
Here's W&M's Olympic program
It was a different sport then-lifts were less important, and the requirements of step sequences for deep edges on every step didn't exist, so it's hard to compare dancers of 1988 and dancers of 2010. However, W&M had a wonderful ability to do humor, a great ability to catch the spirit of ragtime, and fast, fast, fast stepping, almost unequalled in that respect. I think W&M could learn Mahler and I'm not at all sure that V&M couild do Elite Syncopations. I know that V&M's Charleston was not of this level, but again, you have to make an adjustment for Tessa's injuries.
As to greatest ever? Well, they haven't yet gotten to T&D's ability to portray any rhythm whatever, nor have they come close to the 1981 to 1984 T&D in ability to do compulsory dances or OSP's/OD's. So it's T&D for me.
T&D have the absolute definitive rock n roll program (OSP), blues program (OSP) and rhumba (OSP) and the all time absolutely best paso doble (OSP) That's before you get to either their pro career or their FD's.
Last edited by dorispulaski; 04-06-2010 at 06:48 PM.
well, if you go by results they're clearly the best ever canadian ice dancers. There's no argument about that
Then if u liked better B/K or D/L it's a matter of opinion. For me V/M are excellent technicians, clearly the best at the moment and even one of the best ever, but they haven't competed long enough nor they have tried to search and quest for their own style. At the moment, they make the pseudoromantic bland style and they have developed it to the max of possibilities. I saw them live in Turin for the OD and their Flamenco dance had very little of andalucia or deep soul about it, yet it was so brilliantly skated that it tended to make you believe the choreo was sublime.
they haven't had any single programme that u can call memorable yet (imo). not like the barnum, mack and mabel and bolero by t/d, the bach aria suite by k/p or their tchaikovsky and dracula programs as pros, the missing by duschenays, a/p carmina burana, d/S frida... I think their teammates have even managed to put more originality and personality in their performance with the bollywood od by davis/white
So I hope they continue competing, because in fact they're the youngest of all these teams and I love watching them skate and look forward to their development and pursue of new choreography and ideas