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Thread: A question for Wallylutz (Yu-na Kim's influence and legacy)

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    A question for Wallylutz (Yu-na Kim's influence and legacy)

    Hey Wallylutz,

    Since you ask me nicely to take my question out of Mao's thread to curtail the ongoing OT in that thread so I made a thread just to ask that question again.

    In many ways, Yuna doesn't have any one overwhelming strength. Her jumps are good but not historically best (not in the realm of Ito or Harding), her spins are also not in the league of the best (Lucinda Ruhl, Alissa Czisny, etc.) and her spiral sequences are not the best (i.e. Sasha Cohen, Kwan, Czisny, etc.) either. Even her step sequence are the not the best (i.e. Kwan, Mao, even Suzuki) . And as you've said before, she doesn't even do a complete set of jump for the ladies (she doesn't currently do a 3Lo) and you say even her Salchow is tiny and barely rotated. And you also mentioned that she rarely skates a clean free skate (which is true) so why do you say this:

    history will surely remember this amazing skater who changed the course of this sport most likely for the century to come
    In what way do you think she has changed the course of the sport? Thanks.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix347 View Post
    In many ways, Yuna doesn't have any one overwhelming strength...
    I'm not Wallylutz, but I think the place where Yu-na Kim has an overwhelming advantage over the field in CoP is in the GOEs on her jump elements. She can easily get +2 GOE on her opening combo and+1's all on the rest, for about an 8-point head start -- more points than for an extra triple Axel.

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    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I'm not Wallylutz, but I think the place where Yu-na Kim has an overwhelming advantage over the field in CoP is in the GOEs on her jump elements. She can easily get +2 GOE on her opening combo and+1's all on the rest, for about an 8-point head start -- more points than for an extra triple Axel.
    Ain't that the truth. And she can get +2 even when executes an iffy jump. How do you win against that?

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    But that still doesn't answer the question of how she changed the course of figure skating. Yuna's jumps are great but there have been better or at least equally amazing jumpers in the past. To me it seems that ladies figure skating has gone a generation back to Ito/Yamaguchi days in terms of technical content. Actually, I am curious to see what Wallylutz's has to say about this. The only thing I could think of is that she may encourage more skaters to perfect their techniques, because that's the only way to gain an advantage in the GOE's, which seems to be the key to winning these days. But I am not sure if that's a trend set by one skater or the system itself.
    Last edited by miki88; 04-06-2010 at 06:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Ain't that the truth. And she can get +2 even when executes an iffy jump. How do you win against that?
    Ah, yes, the hype dies down. Her fans/ her fanatics/her $$$ and her national heroism affect the judges marks. I remember Kwan gushing pre-Vancouver, "I've never seen a skater fly into her triple/triples that way!" Erm, Michelle, if you lurk, have you so quickly forgotten Irina Slutskjaya?

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    Oh this thread is just asking for trouble. I'm otta here.

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    Well...Janet Lynn, for examle, is remembered even without huge success in the competition.
    And yes, she deserves the reputation.


    For Yuna, she is the role model for CoP and when she's on, no one can beat her under the current scoring system. Not even closer.
    After all, figure skating is not just a jumping test.
    So it never makes any trouble when Yuna is evaluated higher than, for instance, Midori, the greatest jumper.
    Skaters need overall ability for gathering points 'from everywhere' and no one could do it better than Yuna.
    Once again She is the role model for CoP.

    Plus she won a world champs & O/G with fascinating & historical performances with great scores and artistry.
    I think it is so natural to think that she will be remembered as a historical skater with huge influence to other skaters.
    Many of the ladies will try to follow Yuna's way for a total package to be the next #1 in the field.
    Recently Yuna gave an advice to Korean younger skaters that "Focus on the skating skill, not only jumps and spins"
    Yuna proved her way is better than another one focussing on a big jump and sacrificing other elements.
    Last edited by yunaddiction; 04-06-2010 at 08:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bijoux View Post
    Ah, yes, the hype dies down. Her fans/ her fanatics/her $$$ and her national heroism affect the judges marks. I remember Kwan gushing pre-Vancouver, "I've never seen a skater fly into her triple/triples that way!" Erm, Michelle, if you lurk, have you so quickly forgotten Irina Slutskjaya?
    I said, she can even get positive GoEs for an iffy jump. A system where an iffy jump is given positive marks is an interesting judging system.

    On another note, I don't think Yuna will be remembered in the long run for her skating per se, but she will be remembered for being the first Korean skater to become an Olympic figure skating champion. I am not her fan and she was extremely lucky to have performed under a system that highlighted her strengths and ignored her faults. However, that does not take away from the strength and determination that was required of her to be a pioneer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Ain't that the truth. And she can get +2 even when executes an iffy jump. How do you win against that?
    Okkkk I'm getting out of here too

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    As for her impact on future skaters, I think Yu-na has set the standard for using her strengths to maximize her point totals, while not giving anything away in other areas. She is the best CoP skater we have seen so far.

    For instance, her spirals are not her strongest element. Yet she knows how to do enough features to get a level four (with +1.4 GOE at worlds, for a performance that was far below her usual standard.) Similarly, her spins are no better than many skaters', but she gets level four and positive GOEs on all of them. She must be doing something right!

    I think we will see more and more coaches following the lead of Brian Orser -- the way to win is to score more points than the other guy. Eyes on the prize!
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-06-2010 at 08:17 PM.

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    I wonder why we're all talking about technical ability when her musicality and artistry is also part of the equation.

    Her jumping repertoire is not as good as Ito's, true. She doesn't do a 3 loop in international competition. However, of the jumps she does do - in particular her lutz, flip and toe (and even 2-axel) are all huge. She isn't the best jumper ever, but she's the best at the moment and pretty good in the history books.

    Her artistic ability isn't that of Michelle Kwan, nor is her performance, but it's still pretty darn good and there's no question that she is musical and her performance reflects that.

    Michelle Kwan on Kim at the 2009 WC: She has three wow factors. First, her speed across the ice. I've never seen a skater fly into a triple-triple combination. And she also jumps... when you see her triple-triple, she - her jumps are humungous! And also, her musical interpretation. She's a great singer, and I think it really shows. She's very lyrical, and she listens to the music.

    Dick Button on Kim at 2009 WC: "...one of the few skaters who can answer the question 'where is the jump in that jump?'... it's supposed to fly, and she does. Secondly of all, she skates with great elegance... and thirdly of all, she has wonderful edging, speed and flow... she is simply magnificent." See it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y2_akP0tBQ

    Kurt Browning on Kim at 2010 TEB LP: When she is on, Yu-Na takes the momentum of her speed across the ice and changes that into height as well as anybody I've ever seen... but when you attach artistry to the jumps, then you become a winner. See it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wajuze5f8

    These comments (as well as Scott Hamilton's) lead me to believe that Kim is probably the fastest skater, or one of the fastest skaters ever.

    If anything, Kim's ability to blend technical ability with sublime artistic nuances to her performances is what sets her apart. Maybe that's how she's progressed the sport; not only do you need to have a potent 3-3/jumping repertoire to keep up, you also have to have great artistry. In other words, you can't just be an artist nor can you just be a jumper. You have to be both. Kim may not be the best in either, but the fact that she's in the upper tiers in both categories is a great achievement in itself.
    Last edited by Marrymeyunakim; 04-06-2010 at 08:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrymeyunakim View Post
    If anything, Kim's ability to blend technical ability with sublime artistic nuances to her performances is what sets her apart. Maybe that's how she's progressed the sport; not only do you need to have a potent 3-3/jumping repertoire to keep up, you also have to have great artistry. In other words, you can't just be an artist nor can you just be a jumper. You have to be both. Kim may not be the best in either, but the fact that she's in the upper tiers in both categories is a great achievement in itself.
    ITA. She needed the huge/very good 3-3 for the GOE and PCS part in the first place. It was possible that her artistry was somewhat ignored by judges if her 3-3 had not been so consistent with good quality.

    If Yuna continue to skate, what I expect most is that she can/will even develop the musicality/artistry in her skating.
    Genereally Yuna's jumps have height with good speed and quality but also more important is that her jumps as part of the whole flow, not as seperated elements, are excuted with great timing in music and with (usually) other beautiful, exquisite elements holding the whole program.

    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Ain't that the truth. And she can get +2 even when executes an iffy jump. How do you win against that?
    I want this thread to be more specific about judgement. How about providing example(s) which support your argument and reasoning? What iffy jump(s) which got +2 in what particular competition(s)? I am not saying it only to you. Let's see... we can show the most problematic scores that Yuna have gotten in both cases of unfairly high scores and unfairly low ones. OK?

    Wallylutz, thank you for your detailed explanation to my question on the other thread. It took time for me to absorb what you said. There are still a few things that I want to point out but there will be time. I just want you to apply the creteria to all the skaters fairly without personal prefernces.

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    If I may, can we please try to keep this thread specific to the original intent of the question being asked as opposed to making this yet another generic Yuna fight Mao thread or my favorite skater is better than yours, your fav is so overmarked / underscored? More to the point, if all you want is another battleground between Yu-Na Kim and Mao Asada, could you please take your fights elsewhere? Thank you.

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    Good points, Wallylutz. Thanks for sharing!

    I think for me, one thing I will remember about Yu-na is her music selections and costumes. It's like the dresses matched the music and the program. Like that really gorgeous black dress from her Dance Macabre program. Or this year's LP blue dress.

    One of my non-hard core figure skating friends commented that the blue dress seem plain to her, but then when she her program at the Olympics, the dress needed to be simple and graceful, just like her program. And those nuances during her later programs (the flirty look, the nudge on the sholder) makes her memorable too.

    I think all that is part of the package that makes her programs stand out.

    I also agree with Wallylutz that Yu-na had help set some technical standards. Just look at Mirai, for instance. She's definitely got the message that if she wants to be the best, she's got to do that 3-3. And not just not the easier one.

    I think the other significant thing is that Yu-na's technical ability to do those jumps at an "older age." I was watching Elene G's breakout program from the 2006 Olympics on YouTube the other day. She did a 3F-3T there. But now four years later, at 20, she can barely do a 3T-3T.

    Yu-na, on the other hand, is that she built up her jump content over time. She STARTED with a 3T-3T, went to a 3F-3T and now does the 3Z-3T.

    I hope she stays because I think she could develop even more. But I'd imagine that doing such hard programs would wear you out...

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    I'm not wallylutz either but Yu Na has her name in the history books for different reasons
    - the first skater from Korea to make a deep impact to the skating world (much like Lu Chen, in her case even a stronger one)
    - attracting huge masses of audiences from all asia and south korea, who follow her quassi religiously: it's certainly where the money and the shows are now in skating
    - she's not invented any single move, but she (along few other ladies) has helped developed the technichal difficulty in this era of skating . You need a 3-3 now for the short and the long. U didn't need any in the Slutskaya/Kwan period
    -As Mathman said the GoE in her jumps and the speed she has is unrivaled right now. That's a huge advantage in today's scoring system
    I'm not even a fan, but I will for sure remember Yu Na Kim as one of the best skaters ever

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