A question for Wallylutz (Yu-na Kim's influence and legacy) | Golden Skate

A question for Wallylutz (Yu-na Kim's influence and legacy)

Phoenix347

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Hey Wallylutz,

Since you ask me nicely to take my question out of Mao's thread to curtail the ongoing OT in that thread so I made a thread just to ask that question again.

In many ways, Yuna doesn't have any one overwhelming strength. Her jumps are good but not historically best (not in the realm of Ito or Harding), her spins are also not in the league of the best (Lucinda Ruhl, Alissa Czisny, etc.) and her spiral sequences are not the best (i.e. Sasha Cohen, Kwan, Czisny, etc.) either. Even her step sequence are the not the best (i.e. Kwan, Mao, even Suzuki) . And as you've said before, she doesn't even do a complete set of jump for the ladies (she doesn't currently do a 3Lo) and you say even her Salchow is tiny and barely rotated. And you also mentioned that she rarely skates a clean free skate (which is true) so why do you say this:

history will surely remember this amazing skater who changed the course of this sport most likely for the century to come

In what way do you think she has changed the course of the sport? Thanks.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
In many ways, Yuna doesn't have any one overwhelming strength...

I'm not Wallylutz, but I think the place where Yu-na Kim has an overwhelming advantage over the field in CoP is in the GOEs on her jump elements. She can easily get +2 GOE on her opening combo and+1's all on the rest, for about an 8-point head start -- more points than for an extra triple Axel.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I'm not Wallylutz, but I think the place where Yu-na Kim has an overwhelming advantage over the field in CoP is in the GOEs on her jump elements. She can easily get +2 GOE on her opening combo and+1's all on the rest, for about an 8-point head start -- more points than for an extra triple Axel.

Ain't that the truth. And she can get +2 even when executes an iffy jump. How do you win against that?
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
But that still doesn't answer the question of how she changed the course of figure skating. Yuna's jumps are great but there have been better or at least equally amazing jumpers in the past. To me it seems that ladies figure skating has gone a generation back to Ito/Yamaguchi days in terms of technical content. Actually, I am curious to see what Wallylutz's has to say about this. The only thing I could think of is that she may encourage more skaters to perfect their techniques, because that's the only way to gain an advantage in the GOE's, which seems to be the key to winning these days. But I am not sure if that's a trend set by one skater or the system itself.
 
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robinhood

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
I'm not wallylutz either but Yu Na has her name in the history books for different reasons
- the first skater from Korea to make a deep impact to the skating world (much like Lu Chen, in her case even a stronger one)
- attracting huge masses of audiences from all asia and south korea, who follow her quassi religiously: it's certainly where the money and the shows are now in skating
- she's not invented any single move, but she (along few other ladies) has helped developed the technichal difficulty in this era of skating . You need a 3-3 now for the short and the long. U didn't need any in the Slutskaya/Kwan period
-As Mathman said the GoE in her jumps and the speed she has is unrivaled right now. That's a huge advantage in today's scoring system
I'm not even a fan, but I will for sure remember Yu Na Kim as one of the best skaters ever
 

Bijoux

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 8, 2004
Ain't that the truth. And she can get +2 even when executes an iffy jump. How do you win against that?

Ah, yes, the hype dies down. Her fans/ her fanatics/her $$$ and her national heroism affect the judges marks. I remember Kwan gushing pre-Vancouver, "I've never seen a skater fly into her triple/triples that way!" Erm, Michelle, if you lurk, have you so quickly forgotten Irina Slutskjaya?:laugh:
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Ah, yes, the hype dies down. Her fans/ her fanatics/her $$$ and her national heroism affect the judges marks. I remember Kwan gushing pre-Vancouver, "I've never seen a skater fly into her triple/triples that way!" Erm, Michelle, if you lurk, have you so quickly forgotten Irina Slutskjaya?:laugh:

I said, she can even get positive GoEs for an iffy jump. A system where an iffy jump is given positive marks is an interesting judging system.

On another note, I don't think Yuna will be remembered in the long run for her skating per se, but she will be remembered for being the first Korean skater to become an Olympic figure skating champion. I am not her fan and she was extremely lucky to have performed under a system that highlighted her strengths and ignored her faults. However, that does not take away from the strength and determination that was required of her to be a pioneer.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
As for her impact on future skaters, I think Yu-na has set the standard for using her strengths to maximize her point totals, while not giving anything away in other areas. She is the best CoP skater we have seen so far.

For instance, her spirals are not her strongest element. Yet she knows how to do enough features to get a level four (with +1.4 GOE at worlds, for a performance that was far below her usual standard.) Similarly, her spins are no better than many skaters', but she gets level four and positive GOEs on all of them. She must be doing something right!

I think we will see more and more coaches following the lead of Brian Orser -- the way to win is to score more points than the other guy. Eyes on the prize!
 
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yunaddiction

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Well...Janet Lynn, for examle, is remembered even without huge success in the competition.
And yes, she deserves the reputation.


For Yuna, she is the role model for CoP and when she's on, no one can beat her under the current scoring system. Not even closer.
After all, figure skating is not just a jumping test.
So it never makes any trouble when Yuna is evaluated higher than, for instance, Midori, the greatest jumper.
Skaters need overall ability for gathering points 'from everywhere' and no one could do it better than Yuna.
Once again She is the role model for CoP.

Plus she won a world champs & O/G with fascinating & historical performances with great scores and artistry.
I think it is so natural to think that she will be remembered as a historical skater with huge influence to other skaters.
Many of the ladies will try to follow Yuna's way for a total package to be the next #1 in the field.
Recently Yuna gave an advice to Korean younger skaters that "Focus on the skating skill, not only jumps and spins"
Yuna proved her way is better than another one focussing on a big jump and sacrificing other elements.
 
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Marrymeyunakim

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
I wonder why we're all talking about technical ability when her musicality and artistry is also part of the equation.

Her jumping repertoire is not as good as Ito's, true. She doesn't do a 3 loop in international competition. However, of the jumps she does do - in particular her lutz, flip and toe (and even 2-axel) are all huge. She isn't the best jumper ever, but she's the best at the moment and pretty good in the history books.

Her artistic ability isn't that of Michelle Kwan, nor is her performance, but it's still pretty darn good and there's no question that she is musical and her performance reflects that.

Michelle Kwan on Kim at the 2009 WC: She has three wow factors. First, her speed across the ice. I've never seen a skater fly into a triple-triple combination. And she also jumps... when you see her triple-triple, she - her jumps are humungous! And also, her musical interpretation. She's a great singer, and I think it really shows. She's very lyrical, and she listens to the music.

Dick Button on Kim at 2009 WC: "...one of the few skaters who can answer the question 'where is the jump in that jump?'... it's supposed to fly, and she does. Secondly of all, she skates with great elegance... and thirdly of all, she has wonderful edging, speed and flow... she is simply magnificent." See it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y2_akP0tBQ

Kurt Browning on Kim at 2010 TEB LP: When she is on, Yu-Na takes the momentum of her speed across the ice and changes that into height as well as anybody I've ever seen... but when you attach artistry to the jumps, then you become a winner. See it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wajuze5f8

These comments (as well as Scott Hamilton's) lead me to believe that Kim is probably the fastest skater, or one of the fastest skaters ever.

If anything, Kim's ability to blend technical ability with sublime artistic nuances to her performances is what sets her apart. Maybe that's how she's progressed the sport; not only do you need to have a potent 3-3/jumping repertoire to keep up, you also have to have great artistry. In other words, you can't just be an artist nor can you just be a jumper. You have to be both. Kim may not be the best in either, but the fact that she's in the upper tiers in both categories is a great achievement in itself.
 
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miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Ok. I get that she is the role model of COP. But how does that change the course of figure skating? I mean figure skating was always about the combination of jumps and artistry. I don't remember any period in FS history (at least for ladies) when it was just about the jumps. Also, Kristi was also someone who combined both athleticism and artistry. As were many skaters in the past.
 

Marrymeyunakim

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Ok. I get that she is the role model of COP. But how does that change the course of figure skating? I mean figure skating was always about the combination of jumps and artistry. I don't remember any period in FS history (at least for ladies) when it was just about the jumps. Also, Kristi was also someone who combined both athleticism and artistry. As were many skaters in the past.

It's my view that Yu-Na is a bit like an upgraded version of Kristi in that her jumps are bigger, both miss a triple (salchow and loop) and in my mind (opinion-wise), Yu-Na is a better artist. I think "changing the course of figure skating" is a bit of an overexaggeration, but I do think that Yu-Na blends athleticism and grace in a way that other skaters will try to emulate in the future.
 

yunaddiction

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Without Yuna, Figure skating under the new scoring system should become just a jumping test.
Change? I don't know.
At least She 'protected' figure skating from all the blah blah about triple Axel, quad Salchow something.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
1. Bringing a new country to the forefront. I think that alone is something that "changes the course of figure skating." Especially when you pair it with the rise of Asia as a money-pot (for lack of a better word). Compare it to the first group of African men who started succeeding in long distance running at the Olympics. Of course, this is simply theoretical. There's no way of knowing if it's a Lu Chen (relative blip despite China's success in pairs) or something deeper.

2. Being THE model for COP singles skating. There are several singles skaters who seem to work COP extremely well: Chan, Buttle, Lysacek, Rochette (to a lesser extent, Takahashi, Flatt...), but Kim will be the standard. People quibble about the scores, but not the results (compare that to Lysacek vs Plushenko at the Olympics). In fact, it's noteworthy to consider that her success (Kim's) isn't much more considerable than Lysacek's (one silver medal at worlds difference), but the totality of her victories makes her the COP icon. Kim is who future skaters will follow. Her programs (thank you Brian Orser and David Wilson) are gonna be the ones studied by future generations to see how to earn the points to win competitions. Who else is there?
 

Wrlmy

Medalist
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
And while artistry is subjective, just the fact that she had been regarded as the "artistic one" with jumping prowess will influence the following generation of skaters to be all around skater.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
In what way do you think she has changed the course of the sport? Thanks.

Figure skating is a sport where the World Champion or the default #1 skater sets the tone. Just as Ito's arrival in the late 80's accelerated the demise of figures and pushed the ladies figure skating towards a triple jump competition today, the same can be said about Browning and Stojko, whose reign also brought about profound change in men's skating through Quad as well. If we look at the history of this sport over the course of the last 20 years or so, ladies today seem to lag behind technically compared to what they were once capable of in the early 1990's. Aside from the Triple Axel, ladies back then were doing Triple Lutz + Triple Toe almost as a prerequisite to be competitive. The changes brought by Ito and Yamaguchi seemed to take a different direction after Baiul's upset over Kerrigan in the 1994 Olympics, followed by two consecutive years of World Championship where the ladies title was won by women who were deemed 2nd best technically but won due to the artistic impression. From that point on, the ladies and men skating took a somewhat divergent path where the men pushed the envelope technically while the ladies trended towards the precision and more interpretive aspect of figure skating. Triple-Triple for ladies became a seldom occurrence, notwithstanding, Tara Lipinski's brief surge on the scene for about 1 year and half. Aside from the jumps, you can see the men doing so much more than ladies in virtually every aspect of their skating, such as difficult transitions into difficult jumps, fancy footwork, variation on jump's in air positions and etc. Seldom do you see ladies doing any of those.

In the early part of this century, both Olympic Champions in ladies skating, Hughes and Arakawa, were considered surprise winners and neither of them stuck around and thus, failed to provide any leadership in this sport. Arakawa for instance won in Torino with only 5 Triple jumps. Any chance of that happening in men? It is more likely that pigs will grow wings and fly before this happens. ;) Kim's rise to the top of the Olympic podium in 2010 was widely anticipated with her growth alongside Japan's Mao Asada for several years prior to the Vancouver Olympic. Kim wouldn't be as influential as she is today without Asada being a formidable and long-run competitor that she is. Both ladies, in many ways, worked towards pushing the envelope once again for ladies skating.

After posting some 150+ scores in the Vancouver Olympics LP, Kim's record will serve to inspire the ladies to once again push the envelope technically as opposed to continuously drifting away from the men, who dominate virtually every technical aspect of this sport, which wasn't the case in the 1990's. Back then, many elite male skaters expressed apprehension to compete in the ladies' event knowing that there were women who can actually outjump and outskate them. Adam Rippon of USA recently joked that he finally beats Yu-Na Kim's SP scores at the most recent World Championship. It was a joke but it was also quite telling that elite male skaters once again found admiration for what their female counterparts can do whereas a few years back, men were fighting each over how many quads to land while ladies were struggling to hang on to a Triple Lutz + Double toe combo. The difference can't be more glaring.

When people asked me if I agree with Kim's 150+ scores in Vancouver and what do I think about my time there during the Vancouver Olympic, I tend to think of this question in a philosophical way because I know the significance of this score is not merely some petty arguments between certain fans over whether this is too high or justified or otherwise. The little girls working very hard in their way up in this sport today will look at this and aspire to be the next Yu-Na Kim. To this end, Kim's accomplishment likely have pushed these young kids whom you and I are probably not aware yet to challenge themselves and move the ladies figure skating forward again. I refuse to believe Kristi Yamaguchi and Midori Ito are once a 100 year occurence, just as I refused to believe Elvis Stojko was the only man who could land Quad+Triple even though it was difficult to envision any otherwise back in 1997 when Stojko first landed that combo and shocked the world. Kim's ability to push the envelope technically through her Triple Lutz + Triple Toe combos and as well as her unique ability to inspire and draw people to look at her while she is on ice will definitely inspire the young girls to change and to be like that. This doesn't mean Kim is a perfect skater, such perfection doesn't exist, every skater has their strengths and weaknesses. But changes in this sport takes leadership, not some non-existent perfection. 10 years from now, people are going to remember Kim won the Vancouver Olympics by posting 150+ in her LP but not the fact she didn't do a Triple Loop, which would be at best, a mere footnote in the book of history. It is that 150+ accomplishment that will inspire youngsters to challenge themselves and ultimately push the direction of ladies figure skating towards a new horizon.
 
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sunny0760

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
If anything, Kim's ability to blend technical ability with sublime artistic nuances to her performances is what sets her apart. Maybe that's how she's progressed the sport; not only do you need to have a potent 3-3/jumping repertoire to keep up, you also have to have great artistry. In other words, you can't just be an artist nor can you just be a jumper. You have to be both. Kim may not be the best in either, but the fact that she's in the upper tiers in both categories is a great achievement in itself.

ITA.:) She needed the huge/very good 3-3 for the GOE and PCS part in the first place. It was possible that her artistry was somewhat ignored by judges if her 3-3 had not been so consistent with good quality.

If Yuna continue to skate, what I expect most is that she can/will even develop the musicality/artistry in her skating.
Genereally Yuna's jumps have height with good speed and quality but also more important is that her jumps as part of the whole flow, not as seperated elements, are excuted with great timing in music and with (usually) other beautiful, exquisite elements holding the whole program.

Ain't that the truth. And she can get +2 even when executes an iffy jump. How do you win against that?
I want this thread to be more specific about judgement. How about providing example(s) which support your argument and reasoning? What iffy jump(s) which got +2 in what particular competition(s)? I am not saying it only to you. Let's see... we can show the most problematic scores that Yuna have gotten in both cases of unfairly high scores and unfairly low ones. OK?

Wallylutz, thank you for your detailed explanation to my question on the other thread. It took time for me to absorb what you said. There are still a few things that I want to point out but there will be time. I just want you to apply the creteria to all the skaters fairly without personal prefernces.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
If I may, can we please try to keep this thread specific to the original intent of the question being asked as opposed to making this yet another generic Yuna fight Mao thread or my favorite skater is better than yours, your fav is so overmarked / underscored? More to the point, if all you want is another battleground between Yu-Na Kim and Mao Asada, could you please take your fights elsewhere? Thank you.
 
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