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Thread: A question for Wallylutz (Yu-na Kim's influence and legacy)

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by aurora100 View Post
    Exactly.
    Si senorita. 100% cierto

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by parma View Post
    She showed the young skaters how important it is to focus on improving quality of execution. Besides all the GOE's she garners from her jumps, she executes every other element very well; she doesn't have the best spins and spirals in the business, but she makes sure her quality in these elements are up there in the high rank so that she stays even-leveled with other skaters who are the best in these areas.
    You put very eloquently in your whole post. Here, I just want to bring up her spirals and spins.
    While I agree with you, it still seems that there are some people who dislike her spins and especially spirals - a few posters even say they cringe at her not pointed toe during spirals etc. Does it really matter a lot? Have no idea.

    In my humble opinion, I am not very keen of the gymnast like super bandy position in skating. There is one or two spiral positions which I don't like very much even if I admit those should need very good flexibility and balance. I just don't find them very attractive.

    Yuna's sprals have good speed with correct edges and good position. She does not do the position I don't like. But when she was younger(and now sometimes?), there were/are some shaky moments, though.

    I like her spins too. Definitely not slow but when she is tired, sometimes her spins can be a little bit slower but always with good posture. Any opinion?
    Last edited by sunny0760; 04-07-2010 at 11:59 PM.

  3. #48
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    Every skater has strengths and weaknesses in their execution of elements. When I assess a skater's execution of elements, two separate things are going on; assessing in what aspects she does well/not so well, and secondly and more importantly, deciding whether I like the overall impression. Looking at Yuna's spiral for instance, there is certainly room for improvement, such as her stretch and the free leg position. On the other hand, her strength is speed that she carries throughout the sequence and the expression and attention to detail. IMO, the skater who does spiral in a polar opposite way to Yuna's is Caroline Zhang; great stretch, but in a slow speed. So, whose spiral sequence do I like better overall? This is a question that highly depends on personal tastes. To me, I value speed over stretch, so I prefer Yuna's to Zhang's. Also I love how Yuna presents that element; head position, upper body movements, etc. I am sure there are others who think differently, but that's their tastes.
    Last edited by parma; 04-07-2010 at 11:56 PM.

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    Since this thread is no longer about a question for me or anything remotely related to the topic at hand, can we please change the title of this thread so that the people concerned can freely discuss as they please?

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    Quote Originally Posted by parma View Post
    Every skater has strengths and weaknesses in their execution of elements. When I assess a skater's execution of elements, two separate things are going on; assessing in what aspects she does well/not so well, and secondly and more importantly, deciding whether I like the overall impression. Looking at Yuna's spiral for instance, there is certainly room for improvement, such as her stretch and the free leg position. On the other hand, her strength is speed that she carries throughout the sequence and the expression and attention to detail. IMO, the skater who does spiral in a polar opposite way to Yuna's is Caroline Zhang; great stretch, but in a slow speed. So, whose spiral sequence do I like better overall? This is a question that highly depends on personal taste. To me, I value speed over stretch, so I prefer Yuna's to Zhang's. I am sure there are others who think differently, but that's their tastes.
    Yah, I don't understand the fuss over pointed toes and I don't really want to get into it. i do remember being impressed with Kwan's spiral. But it wasn't to do with her pointed toes. She was just so stretched out and it was always a highlight. But her jumps here relatively tiny in height and distance than what Yuna has been able to do. But it was her total package. Her skating was lovely.

    I find the same with Yuna. Her jumps are awesom and her total package is mesmerizing. I don't see problems with her spins or spirals. And I find when people say "yuna does well under the COP system". I find that patronizing and under valuing what Yuna does in total package...her jumps, her transitions, her step sequence, her spirals and her spins. It makes for a nice total program. To say she does everything that garners points, I find it dismissive about her skating. She has an impact in her skating like all other great skaters.

    And no, I am not saying this as Yuna is my favourite skater vs. others. I really think the whole package she brings, she is a class of her own. When asked who did Yuna remind them of to the NBC Olympic panel on the Olympic SP program Gagnon says he couldn't think of anyone. Yamaguchi said she couldn't think of anyone. She said she was unique. Can't remember who else was on the panel. That is the point. No one else who skates now or skated before skates like Yuna Kim in 32 years I've watched figure skating. No one skates up to her at the moment. And she cannot be compared by others. I find all this technical analysis annoying.
    Last edited by aurora100; 04-07-2010 at 11:12 PM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by aurora100 View Post
    Yah, I don't understand the fuss over pointed toes and I don't really want to get into it. i do remember being impressed with Kwan's spiral. But it wasn't to do with her pointed toes. She was just so stretched out and it was always a highlight. But her jumps here relatively tiny in height and distance than what Yuna has been able to do. But it was her total package. Her skating was lovely.

    I find the same with Yuna. Her jumps are awesom and her total package is mesmerizing. I don't see problems with her spins or spirals. And I find when people say "yuna does well under the COP system". I find that patronizing and under valuing what Yuna does in total package...her jumps, her transitions, her step sequence, her spirals and her spins. It makes for a nice total program. To say she does everything that garners points, I find it dismissive about her skating. She has an impact in her skating like all other great skaters.

    And no, I am not saying this as Yuna is my favourite skater vs. others. I really think the whole package she brings, she is a class of her own. When asked who did Yuna remind them of to the NBC Olympic panel on the Olympic SP program Gagnon says he couldn't think of anyone. Yamaguchi said she couldn't think of anyone. She said she was unique. Can't remember who else was on the panel. That is the point. No one else who skates now or skated before skates like Yuna Kim in 32 years I've watched figure skating. No one skates up to her at the moment. And she cannot be compared by others. I find all this technical analysis annoying.
    I totally agree with your comment. YuNa Kim is UNIQUE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Since this thread is no longer about a question for me or anything remotely related to the topic at hand, can we please change the title of this thread so that the people concerned can freely discuss as they please?
    I have a question for you Wallylutz. I am not a figure skater and I am not schooled in figure skating in any way. I've just been a die hard fan of all manners of figure skating since about 1978. I have gone to many competitions and skating shows, sometimes in the back room and vip lounges. I love all disciplines and all who do amazing things. Sometime I like one that skate like I would if I skated, even at major events. I enjoy coming to the GS Forum to hear about opinions of other enthusiastic figure skating fans, whom I am assuming are amatures just as I, as in not a member of the profession.

    So I have a question for you and I don't mean to be facetious at all. This is a genuine question. I just want to know if I am missing something here. Given that people are asking you a pointed question and asking you for a specific opinion as a self-standing thread about "what makes Yuna Kim's influence and legacy" and that you have chosen to give considered answers to those lofty questions, what exactly are your credentials? Are you a former skater? A coach? A choreographer? Are you in the system? What is the base of your opinions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aurora100 View Post
    I have a question for you Wallylutz. I am not a figure skater and I am not schooled in figure skating in any way. I've just been a die hard fan of all manners of figure skating since about 1978. I have gone to many competitions and skating shows, sometimes in the back room and vip lounges. I love all disciplines and all who do amazing things. Sometime I like one that skate like I would if I skated, even at major events. I enjoy coming to the GS Forum to hear about opinions of other enthusiastic figure skating fans, whom I am assuming are amatures just as I, as in not a member of the profession.

    So I have a question for you and I don't mean to be facetious at all. This is a genuine question. I just want to know if I am missing something here. Given that people are asking you a pointed question and asking you for a specific opinion as a self-standing thread about "what makes Yuna Kim's influence and legacy" and that you have chosen to give considered answers to those lofty questions, what exactly are your credentials? Are you a former skater? A coach? A choreographer? Are you in the system? What is the base of your opinions?
    For this kind of question, could you please use the PM?

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    For this kind of question, could you please use the PM?
    What is a PM?

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by aurora100 View Post
    What is a PM?
    Private message.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    2. Being THE model for COP singles skating. There are several singles skaters who seem to work COP extremely well: Chan, Buttle, Lysacek, Rochette (to a lesser extent, Takahashi, Flatt...), but Kim will be the standard. People quibble about the scores, but not the results (compare that to Lysacek vs Plushenko at the Olympics). In fact, it's noteworthy to consider that her success (Kim's) isn't much more considerable than Lysacek's (one silver medal at worlds difference), but the totality of her victories makes her the COP icon. Kim is who future skaters will follow. Her programs (thank you Brian Orser and David Wilson) are gonna be the ones studied by future generations to see how to earn the points to win competitions. Who else is there?
    I am not sure if being the model for COP makes a good compliment, actually, because it's still a developing system.

    Say, Mao used to be so only three or four years ago. Not using her weaker jumps, 3T and 3S, was not a problem because they had lower base values (it is still not too much of a problem) and her lutz was praised as a good jump with good hight etc and her 3A was not called for UR as often as it is now and her 3F-3R was always ratified. It seemed as if she'd earn more and more points with all those jumps that garner greater base values. But when the rules evolved (edge calls, stricter UR calls, and recommendation for giving more positive GOE when applicable) along with her own jump techniques having come to suffered, she is no longer a model for COP. Her weaknesses were looked over under the previous rules. Had the 2006 standards been maintained, she'd still fair much better now, despite some struggles that happened after growth. I am not saying that the 2006 rules should have been maintained. But I am making a point that rules are still subject to change and they are still deciding what they'd focus.

    Likewise, Cohen, her big flutz was not an issue when she skated under COP of that time. Her landings tended to be tight, but were not hit for URs. Shizuka lipped but did not need to get an edge call at that time, either.

    Also remember Caro won that Worlds Silver with those fully rotated jumps with messy landings, Laura won Bronze with three triple programs etc etc. What if the rules come to more strictly punish mule kick and leg wrap, then Yukari Nakano or Caroline Zhang would have never won anything. If the rule comes to punish a program without a full set of triples, then a lot of skaters, including Yuna and Mao, will be in trouble. If positive GOE comes to be rewarded by relative percentage (X1.1, 1.2, 1.3) rather than additive points (+1, 2, 3) as discussed in some skating boards including this one, then Yuna would not be able to benefit from GOE as much as she does now, either.

    The system is still evolving and they come up with something new every year.

    I think that skaters would like to be remembered for their quality, rather than points (quantity), because points depend on the rules, and rules change every year, meaning it's not timeless.

    Regardless of rules, no one can take away the greatness of Yuna's 3-3 or the speed across the ice. Likewise, no one can take away Jeff's intricate steps or the soft stroking and airy jumps of Mao.

  12. #57
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    It's great to hear that this young lady had changed the course of the sport.

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    yuna is good-and yes there are times she messes up and still gets a postivie goe when in fact according to rules she should -but hey just a normal fan-so what do i know.
    in korea she is starting a legacy as the first from her country-so that in itself is notable.
    however non yuna fans and some from outside koreas isn't saying she isnt good-she is but she is like all the other good and great skaters from other countries-great and legends in own country first outside a bit of different story-
    i have different ciritera to be a great skater and above other that doesn't necessarily go by skating record,
    she is good and great for her country and to continue to help promote sport for korea but for me to use her (yu-na to psh the sport no--i would want my own country skaters to push sport of figure skating first and than (outsiders)-sorry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I am not sure if being the model for COP makes a good compliment, actually, because it's still a developing system.
    True, and I should've articulated my point better.

    Carolina Kostner tends to be the skater cited as COP gone wrong with her 2008 LP at Worlds. Kim is COP done right and the direction people want to push the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fairly4 View Post
    yuna is good-and yes there are times she messes up and still gets a postivie goe when in fact according to rules she should -but hey just a normal fan-so what do i know.
    in korea she is starting a legacy as the first from her country-so that in itself is notable.
    however non yuna fans and some from outside koreas isn't saying she isnt good-she is but she is like all the other good and great skaters from other countries-great and legends in own country first outside a bit of different story-
    i have different ciritera to be a great skater and above other that doesn't necessarily go by skating record,
    she is good and great for her country and to continue to help promote sport for korea but for me to use her (yu-na to psh the sport no--i would want my own country skaters to push sport of figure skating first and than (outsiders)-sorry
    I think you ought to read Wallylutz's response again.

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