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Thread: Which skaters “changed the course of figure skating?”

  1. #46
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This thread was inspired by the ongoing discussion of Yu-na Kim’s influence and legacy. Together with Mao Asada, these are two of the finest athletes in the world. Going back a little ways, Katarina Witt won four world championships and two Olympic gold medals. Michelle Kwan gave us bucketsful of oohs and aahs....
    thanx mathman for this post really informative!

    and kwan gave us the best of oooohs and aaaaaaaaaaahs
    Last edited by seniorita; 04-11-2010 at 10:02 AM.

  2. #47
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I learned most from Ice-Skating: A History by Nigel Brown. I think it was published in 1959.
    There are other useful books of skating history, or with relevant chapters, available, but now out of print. If you can get to the library at the museum in Colorado Springs, you'd find most there. Otherwise, check out large libraries and hope you get lucky.
    Thank you so much, gkelly for the name of that book which I will include in my Summer reading at the beach. I will also be looking for other histories whenever I am in a Big Library. (Wikipedia is useful but not all that trustworth, imo.)


    According to Brown, Lily Kronenberger brought a live band to 1911 Worlds to accompany her performance.
    Love it. She should be credited with changing the course of figure skating. I presume she won the competitition.

  3. #48
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Haines, for example, as only a dancer could, put Music to his show skating. He was not a competitive skater and Music was not part of competitive Free Style.
    In Jackson Haines' day there was no such thing as competitive Free Style skating. (After all, someone has to invent a sport before there can be any competitions )

    In those days competitions were held in tracing school figures only. Haines won the first U.S. figure skating championship in 1864, but when he tried to embellish his performances by throwing in some dance moves he was basically run out of town.

    In Vienna he founded what became known as the Vienna School of figure skating -- essentially, the sport of free skating that we know today, as opposed to school figures. Jackson died young (in 1875) but his students and disciples n the Vienna School extended his work and formed the International Skating Union in 1892. The ISU began the work of organizing figure skating championships which included free style. The first World Championship was held in 1896 -- one imagines, with Haines smiling down in approval.

    I presume she won the competition.
    Indeed she did. Kronenberger won four consecutive ladies World Championships, 1908-1911 (accoding to Wikipedia. )

  4. #49
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Interesting about the use of music. Wondering when other skaters began using music in their freeskates?
    Is there a rule that says a skater or team must use music?
    Older fans remember when the music stopped -and Irina Rodnina and her partner finished off their program seemingly without missing a beat

    What would happen today if a skater came out for either their SP or LP and skated without music? Is there a rule against that?

    How would it effect their score? Is it possible that in the same way we see Plushy getting big marks for TR - we could also see a skater receiving pretty good IN marks - even though they skated without music?
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-12-2010 at 10:58 AM.

  5. #50
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This thread was inspired by the ongoing discussion of Yu-na Kim’s influence and legacy.
    Only 5 years (maybe 6) and she has a "legacy?"

    Dictionary • a thing handed down by a predecessor

    I think the Korean federation has created this legacy and are to be credited with the success of FS for Yu-Na.... It took a village i.m.o. Great and wonderful but the legacy, if there is going to be one, will come from the Korean Federation creating these skaters. If Yu-na continues her "Raine" in 5 years I might agree with "legacy" but for now it has not been defined i.m.mind. One more Oly and a medal, continually hit the leader board, etc...

    Semantics or whatever it is, but people are convolute words like crazy. expl. Accident is considered a excuse, it makes it OK. An accident is an AVOIDABLE circumstance that could have been avoided if someone was paying more attention. Now Legacy is something we call a skater who has only been on the world attention page for 5 years at most. As far as influence, debatable i.m.o. What the federation has done in creating the perfect little ice skater is likely to be modeled. Now Yu-na needed the natural talent to be selected and props to the Koreans for recognizing this and with out Yu-na being Yu-na .... it is she that is great but really wonder if she had the option to be or if it was just going to happen because her country wanted it to AND she had the potential. She proved positive on that she is and did, however the fact it was provided and demanded of her ... show she shines in some way to be such a publicly figure now.

    Again I do like her (currently the best ladies skater i.m.o) but I feel the "band wagon" is by-passing reality station and showing up to early at "legacy stop." She is headed that direction but not without flaw as every human is. We'll see how she continues before I think putting her in the category of presumptuous titles.

    Yuka, Fumie are a legacy to Japan, Kwan, Yamaguchi are to USA, Kat Witt Germany .... etc ... = Legacy.

    Again as always J.M.O.

    - Sorry if it seems like I am picking out your posts MM, it is just that is I read yours more so ...
    Last edited by SeaniBu; 04-12-2010 at 11:25 AM.

  6. #51
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ No problem. Here is the thread in which the question is posed about whether or not it is appropriate to speak of Kim having a "legacy."

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...u-na-Kim-s-inf
    luence-and-legacy)

    The only thing I claimed for Kim (and also Asada) in this thread is that they are fine athletes. As for "legacies," my personal list was Haines, Syers, Henie, Button, and -- as my special odd-ball "OP's choice" on the administrative side, Sonia Bianchetti.

    If I had to add another it would be Ulrich Salchow, who turned the sport in the direction of athleticism in the early twentieth century.
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-12-2010 at 11:27 AM.

  7. #52
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    I see, it was a response. I should have looked into that more but I am still glad that I made the point to people who cannot keep word definitions with the word it belongs to. - maybe another issue there. lololol ~ oh Seani.

    Anyhoo, B.O.T.T Henie. Sonja put FS in the attention of the world. Right person at the right time changed the outlook of FS from the world spectator p.o.v. For me personally it was Kwan who was the MOST but I think Dorthy, Scott and Peggy planted the seed in me anyway.

    And how quickly that thread turned into a C.O.P bash. Wow. It seems like that is pretty common around here these days. http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...u-na-Kim-s-inf

    Seems the 6.0 said the one that can do the most crowd pleasing routine and has some equality in jumps with the rest of the field will win. That is not the case anymore. 99 yard run back is not a touchdown even if it was the best play of the game., a 124 does not beat a 125 even if they tried harder and had a prettier dress - not to mention more fans.

    The big thing now is, IS THIS REALLY BEING INSTIGATED or are judges still waxing scoured and as influenced as the audience. And personal adversity being overcome before a skating event SHOULD NOT be taken into consideration. ALL life is relative to individuals and judgment should be based on that one performance and NOTHING else.
    Last edited by SeaniBu; 04-12-2010 at 11:45 AM.

  8. #53
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Is there a rule that says a skater or team must use music?...

    What would happen today if a skater came out for either their SP or LP and skated without music? Is there a rule against that?

    How would it effect their score? Is it possible that in the same way we see Plushy getting big marks for TR - we could also see a skater receiving pretty good IN marks - even though they skated without music?
    I always wished someone would skate to Cage's 4'33". This work -- in three movements -- is scored for any instrument or combination of instuments, tacet throughout. (It would have to be editied by leaving out three seconds somewhere to fit a men's long program at four and a half minutes.)

    Cage himself believed that this was not just absurd attention-seeking, but that the audience would actual have an artistic experience by contemplating silence in an environment of other usually not noticed sounds (the rustling in the theatre, etc.) For skating, the skater could "interpret" the faint swish of blade over ice, the percussive solo "Bravo!" shouted from the stands by his mother, etc.

  9. #54
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Actually, it's 4:30 +/- 10 secs, so 4:33 is OK

  10. #55
    Thanks Team Abbott snowflake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I always wished someone would skate to Cage's 4'33". This work -- in three movements -- is scored for any instrument or combination of instuments, tacet throughout.
    I assume this is a quiet piece of music, but I wonder too about janetfan's question:
    "What would happen today if a skater came out for either their SP or LP and skated without music? Is there a rule against that?"

    Suppose there is no rule against it, but they get zero IN points, or?

  11. #56
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    Toller Cranston

  12. #57
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowflake View Post
    I assume this is a quiet piece of music, but I wonder too about janetfan's question:
    "What would happen today if a skater came out for either their SP or LP and skated without music? Is there a rule against that?"

    Suppose there is no rule against it, but they get zero IN points, or?
    Some prefer the piano version of 4'33 - but my favorite is this version, for full orchestra.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJagb7hL0E

    mm, I think it is possible to make some cuts in this music although it could be difficult


    I am not sure about any rules for skaters using music - but music does let the skater know when to start and stop - so if nothing else music provides a clock or stopwatch.
    Last edited by janetfan; 04-12-2010 at 02:38 PM.

  13. #58
    Thanks Team Abbott snowflake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Some prefer the piano version - but my favorite is this version, for full orchestra.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJagb7hL0E

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    I would like to go negative and place Tanya Harding on this list. She and her BFF Nancy changed the image of figure skaters as fragile, delicate and angelic into fierce competitors willing to "go there" for the win. Skating has been the same since... for better or worse.

  15. #60
    Thanks Team Abbott snowflake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I am not sure about any rules for skaters using music - but music does let the skater know when to start and stop - so if nothing else music provides a clock or stopwatch.
    I think the skater can start and stop independent of when the music starts or stops

    Anyway, I wish some skater would challenge by using "music" like this

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