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Thread: Which skaters “changed the course of figure skating?”

  1. #76
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    I agree that there needs to be a better way to score jumps that appear clean and controlled to the naked eye in real time but are moderately underrotated, and I hope that the "intermediate score" proposal for these jumps, or something along those lines, will be adopted.

    However, keep in mind that it is only the hardest jumps that score more for a fall if deemed sufficiently rotated than for an otherwise good landing if downgraded. In most cases, a fall on a triple, after subtracting the -3 GOE and the fall deduction, will net less than the base value of a double from the same takeoff. Only for quads and for triple flips and lutzes does -3 GOE and fall deduction on the rotated jump add up to more than 0 GOE for a downgrade or jump with one less revolution. Maybe the Scale of Values should be tweaked a bit more to be consistent for all kinds of jumps about whether a fall or a "clean downgrade" should score higher.

    Also, a very high proportion of jumps with falls are also downgraded. So a fall on a triple attempt will often get the base value of a double minus -3 GOE for a double, which comes out to 1.00 or less, so after the fall deduction the net value of the attempt is 0 or less than 0 (negative).

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Interesting point. Source, please that there was no Free Skating Program attached to the School Figures Sport during Haines' times.
    Now that you asked, I have to say that I really don't know for sure whether this is true or not. This is the impression that I formed by reading many little snippets of miscellaneous information about the early days of figure skating.

    I will have to check out the book that gkelly recommended.

    Anyway, my impression is that competitive free skating developed in stages in the form of skaters linking together several continuous school figures by connecting steps.

    Here is a very cool book, written in 1898, that is a complete figure skating textbook, describing in great detail all the figures that skaters were expected to show mastery of.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=F6cCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR3

    In the appendix the rules are given for international competitions, including the 1898 World Championship.

    By 1898 there were two phases to the competition, Compulsory Figures and Free Figures. Here are the rules for the Free Figures part of the competition. (By the way, you can page through this book by entering the requested page number as the last part of the url directly in your address bar.)

    http://books.google.com/books?id=F6cCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA307

    In Free Figures the skater has five minutes and there do not seem to be any specific requirements about which figures and connecting elements must be presented. The performance is judged on the following criteria (very much like the first mark and the second mark in 6.0 judging.)

    (a) The contents of the programme performed (difficulty and variety); and

    (b) The manner of performance (harmonic composition, sureness, carriage, and movement, etc.)

    The rules and method of scoring for Compulsory Figures starts here:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=F6cCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA303

    Competitions were also held in “United Figures,” aka “hand-in-hard figures” (pairs).

    And the new variation at the time was something called “Combined Figures” (synchro), performed by teams of six men all skating figures in unison together to make one big pattern. The table of contents of the book is here:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=F6cCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR11

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I agree that there needs to be a better way to score jumps that appear clean and controlled to the naked eye in real time but are moderately underrotated, and I hope that the "intermediate score" proposal for these jumps, or something along those lines, will be adopted.

    However, keep in mind that it is only the hardest jumps that score more for a fall if deemed sufficiently rotated than for an otherwise good landing if downgraded. In most cases, a fall on a triple, after subtracting the -3 GOE and the fall deduction, will net less than the base value of a double from the same takeoff. Only for quads and for triple flips and lutzes does -3 GOE and fall deduction on the rotated jump add up to more than 0 GOE for a downgrade or jump with one less revolution. Maybe the Scale of Values should be tweaked a bit more to be consistent for all kinds of jumps about whether a fall or a "clean downgrade" should score higher.

    Also, a very high proportion of jumps with falls are also downgraded. So a fall on a triple attempt will often get the base value of a double minus -3 GOE for a double, which comes out to 1.00 or less, so after the fall deduction the net value of the attempt is 0 or less than 0 (negative).
    Thanks, G for clarifying this for me... Its one of my biggest pet peeves regarding CoP and I don't think I understood how this worked in terms of scoring. And Less than Zero is one of my all time favorite movies, so I feel better on several different levels...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwanford Wife View Post
    Thanks, G for clarifying this for me... Its one of my biggest pet peeves regarding CoP and I don't think I understood how this worked in terms of scoring. And Less than Zero is one of my all time favorite movies, so I feel better on several different levels...
    One of my pet peeves, is the "partial credit" given to a failed element which requires a more scrutinized look at a failed jump. How much partial credit can one give to a wrong edge takeoff when the air turns are no longer a part of the counter rotation but that of another type jump with an easier landing? Yet if happens and the easier air turns and landings are given +goes based on another jump - nothing to do with counter rotation.

    Negating the whole wrong edge jump would be non controversal and skaters could improve their technique for subsequent competitions.

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    Mm or anyone else, since you search old rules and books (at first i read 1998 and i thought, aaa this is not that old), you mentioned before who introduced the music in programs, is there any idea how the rule about no lyrics in music pieces came up and how /why eventually they changed it for ice dance? i had a conversation about it this morning and I remembered I always was embarassed to ask someone. :o I m really interested about it.

    Wikipedia also refers to the first book ever written about fs, called A Treatise on Skating (1772) written in England.

    Now I was reading there I didnt know the Dutch had first the idea of the blade instead of iron platform. But then I remember the novel "the silver skates" that i had read when I was little and they describe the wooden skates in Holland. Although i think the book was more about speed skating.

    Thanx for this topic, it made me read different sources, I also found Haines , apart from the permanent blade, was also responsible for adding the toe pick in skates making toe pick jumps possible.

  6. #81
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    Russian ladies in the coming quadrennial....you know, when all 12 (there's probably even more than I'm forgetting too) fantastic youngsters dominate the international skating scene . I have a feeling it's going to happen too...there's just too many of them for it NOT to happen. I'm excited . Liza for Sochi gold!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwanford Wife View Post
    I shall continue my negative trend and add Yuna and Mao to this list... Because I'm tired of hearing how awesome, amazing, and more talented than everybody else - when the reality is that they don't have a full set of triple jumps. Sure, CoP allows for this but having spent my entire life watching skaters struggle to get and keep these jumps - I struggle with the modern ideal of "perfection"

    I don't blame the skaters, I blame the game.
    Why is there so much emphasis on a "full set of triple jumps" to indicate mastery of skating? Perhaps, this is an old pre-set notion from pre-CoP era. After all, shouldn't the same mastery be reflected in the ability to execute difficult jumps that most skaters can't even do? Shouldn't it be about the quality of the jumping not the actual quanitity? 3a or 3-3 combo is much more difficult to execute and most skaters are forced to do a full triple triple program because they don't have the ability to execute the more difficult jumping passes.
    Last edited by Figure88; 04-14-2010 at 07:53 AM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    Why is there so much emphasis on a "full set of triple jumps" to indicate mastery of skating? Perhaps, this is an old pre-set notion from pre-CoP era. After all, shouldn't the same mastery be reflected in the ability to execute difficult jumps that most skaters can't even do? Shouldn't it be about the quality of the jumping not the actual quanitity? 3a or 3-3 combo is much more difficult to execute and most skaters are forced to do a full triple triple program because they don't have the ability to execute the more difficult jumping passes.
    You raise an interesting point - as did Kwanford.

    Let's not forget she blamed "the game" and not the skaters.
    I agree that the quality of jumps is important - but also like the idea of bonus points for completing a full set of triples.

    As to all of these other Ladies today "being forced to do a full set of triples" - who are they? None of the three medalists at Worlds did them.

    I am wondering of the top 10 finishers at 2010 Worlds how many did a full set of triples?

    I am not really sure how I feel about this. I don't mind Yuna skipping the 3Loop and doing three 2A's - because as you pointed out the quality of her jumps is so high.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    Why is there so much emphasis on a "full set of triple jumps" to indicate mastery of skating?
    Well, it doesn't indicate mastery of skating on the ice so much as mastery of jumping techniques. Although not doing any sort of lutz likely means opportunities lost to demonstrate multidirectional skating and counterrotation as skating techniques on the ice.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    As to all of these other Ladies today "being forced to do a full set of triples" - who are they? None of the three medalists at Worlds did them.

    I am wondering of the top 10 finishers at 2010 Worlds how many did a full set of triples?
    Do you mean ladies who finished in the top 10 at Worlds and who successfully executed five different triples plus double axel?
    Ando, Phaneuf, Suzuki (3Lz was flawed but not completely failed)

  10. #85
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    Did Phaneuf do the flip?

  11. #86
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    Oh, you're right, she didn't.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    Why is there so much emphasis on a "full set of triple jumps" to indicate mastery of skating? Perhaps, this is an old pre-set notion from pre-CoP era. After all, shouldn't the same mastery be reflected in the ability to execute difficult jumps that most skaters can't even do? Shouldn't it be about the quality of the jumping not the actual quanitity? 3a or 3-3 combo is much more difficult to execute and most skaters are forced to do a full triple triple program because they don't have the ability to execute the more difficult jumping passes.
    Hmmm. A Poster after my own heart. Quality is more important than Quantity. What a concept! Apparently, under CoP, Quantity pays off in big points even if a skater is unable to fulfill the definition requirements. It doesn't matter if a skater can not execute a proper jump when all the skater has to do is fake it. How many skaters are always consistent Fallers, Flutzers, Underrotators? yet they pick up points for Quantity, and to top it off, win medals. Quality be damned!

    The perfect reason for me to want to get rid of the SP and use it exclusively for Technical only, with quality as the goal.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Hmmm. A Poster after my own heart. Quality is more important than Quantity. What a concept! Apparently, under CoP, Quantity pays off in big points even if a skater is unable to fulfill the definition requirements. It doesn't matter if a skater can not execute a proper jump when all the skater has to do is fake it. How many skaters are always consistent Fallers, Flutzers, Underrotators? yet they pick up points for Quantity, and to top it off, win medals. Quality be damned!

    The perfect reason for me to want to get rid of the SP and use it exclusively for Technical only, with quality as the goal.
    You added a different twist but yes, your comments make good sense.
    But I am not sure if it is fair or accurate to blame CoP for falls, flutzes and UR's. Didn't we see the same shortcomings under 6.0? Maybe even an Olympic champion or two with ur and edge problems that might not fly today?

    Back to Kwanford's point - and with or without music - many of today's top ladies can't do 5 different triples in their LP. Is it a step forward or backward for skating? Does it even matter?

    Under CoP points are points - and if Laura can win bronze with only three triples - (and only two different triples at that - a 3T and 3Lz) what does it say about the future of skating?

  14. #89
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    Depends if you consider it a trend or a fluke.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Mm or anyone else, since you search old rules and books (at first i read 1998 and i thought, aaa this is not that old), you mentioned before who introduced the music in programs, is there any idea how the rule about no lyrics in music pieces came up and how /why eventually they changed it for ice dance?...
    I believe that for a long time there was no actual rule about vocal music, but it was just a tradition to use instrumental music only. The first musical accompaniment was just the town band, hired to stand on the side of the lake and oom-pah away. Later, when indoor rinks were built for recreational skating, there would be an organ, the same as for accompanying silent movies in the movie houses.

    (OT -- William Hershel (organist and oboist) and his sister Caroline (soprano) entertained between acts at a famous London theater in the 1700s. When the next act of the play commenced they had some time off before the next interlude. So they rushed home to look through their telescope until it was time to run back to the theater again.

    They discovered the planet Uranus (which they named George (after the King of England), but Continental astronomers didn't like this name, so they changed it..

    This is true -- you can look it up. )

    I am not sure when major figure skating championships started to be held indoors, but I have seen photos of skaters in the 30s and 40s with phonographs at the edge of (outdoor) rinks.

    I am pretty sure that in the late 90s some pairs team (Kuchikia and Sand for one) skated to opera music with vocals. But as for popular music, there were a lot of rules in place about "not making serious competitive skating into a public spectacle." Things like costume rules, rules against show-off elements like backflips and head-bangers -- and it was generally expected that skaters would use sedate classical symphonic-type music. I believe that the ISU passed a specific rule against vocals of all types after the 1989-90 season.

    If I remember correctly the thin edge of the wedge came in the 1997-98 Olympic year. The Original Dance was the jive, and the skaters had a hard time finding appropriate music with no vocals. So the ISU relaxed the rule for ice dancing that year. I don't know if they allowed only "scat" vocals that year or full vocals for the OD.

    But basically I think the impetus on disallowing vocals was to keep the pristine stick-up-the-behind image of serious competitive skating untarnished by anything connected to professional show skating.

    (Caveat: Skating experts are welcome to correct any of this if I am remembering it wrong.)

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