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Thread: Which skaters “changed the course of figure skating?”

  1. #91
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    Yu-na doing three of the same jump and a double at that, three double axels is at least one too many. I guess there will be many who say her double axels were better, prettier than Mao doing her historic 3 3a performance. I'm getting used to it now.

    I agree with KW

    I would hope that the ladies return to doing all the triples in their long. This seems the definition of Mastery at the elite level. The CoP should support that along with the stroking, edges, spins and spirals. The footwork sequences are being over done. Though anazing to watch Takahashi, I still feel thrilled when I watch the quad men. Evgeni had a point about Ice dance though he was snarky. Personally, I would have been thrilled to see Mao do 1 3a in her long. I think the men should do two. I don't think women should do two in one program even if they can. And they should not try quads as they get injured and ruin their hips. Even excessive 3.3's kept us from seeing Tara skate beyond age 17 or 18. What a shame. The 3a- Its such a difficult jump that only some 5 ladies have landed it in competition. To me it is more important that the skater has learned all the triples and attempts them. Doesn't that level the field and we get to see who can jump well?

    As for the men, I agree that the quad is a good thing i love to see and I recall SLC where all three medalists did quads and quad triples. I do not like that the sport has pushed triple -triple on the ladies because only the very elite can do it. Michelle Kwan, with all her attributes didn't win Oly gold because she was outjumped. I'm taking nothing away friom the great skills/skates of Tara/Sarah, but the 3/3's were most highly valued and both these ladies jumped to first, with beautiful exciting performances of course.

    I find it strange that a 3/3 could be worth more than two 3A's in the Ladies event, but someone made that decision. Joannie, getting bronze, had neither. Oh, well. I am never going to understand CoP.

    They seem to want everything including difficult entrances and difficult footwork into these triples...so what has to be left out? The jumps. Love Laura Lepisto won bronze with 3 triples at Worlds? Hmmm.
    Last edited by Bijoux; 04-14-2010 at 09:03 PM.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bijoux View Post
    I find it strange that a 3/3 could be worth more than two 3A's in the Ladies event...
    Not exactly. Two triple Axels are worth 16.2 points. A triple Lutz/triple toe is worth 10 points.
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-15-2010 at 02:29 PM.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    (OT -- William Hershel (organist and oboist) and his sister Caroline (soprano) entertained between acts at a famous London theater in the 1700s. When the next act of the play commenced they had some time off before the next interlude. So they rushed home to look through their telescope until it was time to run back to the theater again.

    They discovered the planet Uranus (which they named George (after the King of England), but Continental astronomers didn't like this name, so they changed it..

    This is true -- you can look it up. )
    This is so funny, MM: Just this afternoon, I had to look up the discovery of the outer planets for work--and there was William Herschel. I've also done some reading about Caroline. But I didn't realize they also had musical abilities. Talk about the long arm of coincidence.

    I didn't remember when the vocal music rule was relaxed for ice dance, but I remember that horrible period when ice dance music had to have been written for dancing--so you couldn't use great works like the Vivaldi that Usova and Zhulin used in 1992. Which is, I think, how Torvill and Dean ended up using Fred and Ginger's greatest hits for their dance routine. They were so circumscribed by this limitation that they couldn't be innovative, and we ended up with Grischuk and Platov winning with Rock Around the Clock. Truly a waste of everyone's potential, I thought.

    I'm glad they allow a wider range of music again for ice dance. Just contemplating that wonderful Mahler symphony segment that Virtue and Moir used confirms this. But my favorite example of music outside of the ordinary is Denkova and Staviskiy's magnificent Baroque medley that they used for their 2003 OD:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGFbFEDI6DA

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    People make it sound like Laura Lepisto skated in an amazing competition and won bronze. She didn't. She lucked into bronze when skaters who could outrank her (Nagasu, Flatt, Ando, Kostner) had less than perfect skates. She landed five triples in Vancouver and came sixth overall. In a well skated event, she wouldn't have been on the podium (with what she delivered).

    And as for footwork - currently, level four footwork is worth 3.8 points. A quad toe is 9.8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    People make it sound like Laura Lepisto skated in an amazing competition and won bronze. She didn't. She lucked into bronze when skaters who could outrank her (Nagasu, Flatt, Ando, Kostner) had less than perfect skates. She landed five triples in Vancouver and came sixth overall. In a well skated event, she wouldn't have been on the podium (with what she delivered).

    And as for footwork - currently, level four footwork is worth 3.8 points. A quad toe is 9.8.
    yes, a dismal ladies skate with a couple exceptions. thank goodness for Mao...

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwanford Wife View Post
    My biggest issue with CoP are the scores themselves... In Kwanford's Perfect World - technical prowess would be rewarded to ensure the sport continues to be "bigger, faster, higher" - innovation across the board isn't encouraged so skaters don't have the incentive to push. A complete set of triple jumps would also get a bonus over tagging a 2axle onto jumps just to rack up points.

    I also have an issue with what I see as leniency towards falls. It makes no sense that an under rotated jump is severly penialized where a fall is not. One thing that 6.0 got right was the harshness of the fall. Again, in my perfect world - I wouldn't give a single point for a fall. Don't throw it, if you can't land it.
    IMHO, the two statements in bold are contradictive. Who in their right mind would try to innovate when they get nothing for trying and falling?

    A complete set of triple jumps would also get a bonus over tagging a 2axle onto jumps just to rack up points.
    I personally think quality is more important than quantity. I would rather enjoy a beautifully executed double axel over a poorly executed triple axel. If everyone is racking up points with double axels, then someone who can execute a triple will get rewarded for trying a triple.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    People make it sound like Laura Lepisto skated in an amazing competition and won bronze. She didn't. She lucked into bronze when skaters who could outrank her (Nagasu, Flatt, Ando, Kostner) had less than perfect skates. She landed five triples in Vancouver and came sixth overall. In a well skated event, she wouldn't have been on the podium (with what she delivered).

    And as for footwork - currently, level four footwork is worth 3.8 points. A quad toe is 9.8.
    Are you sure Caro is still better than Laura? The last 5 times they competed at major Intl events Laura has finished ahead of Caro 4 times. (Last 2 Euros + last 2 Worlds + Olympics).

    Laura also finished ahead of Flatt at the Olympics and Worlds this season and beat Mao at the Japan Open.

    Perhaps Laura is lucky that in today's skating 3-4 triples can get you on many podiums.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    People make it sound like Laura Lepisto skated in an amazing competition and won bronze. She didn't. She lucked into bronze when skaters who could outrank her (Nagasu, Flatt, Ando, Kostner) had less than perfect skates.
    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Are you sure Caro is still better than Laura? The last 5 times they competed at major Intl events Laura has finished ahead of Caro 4 times. (Last 2 Euros + last 2 Worlds + Olympics).

    Laura also finished ahead of Flatt at the Olympics and Worlds this season and beat Mao at the Japan Open.
    So perhaps "could outrank her" doesn't mean "are better overall skaters" but rather "are at approximately the same level overall, so contests between them can go either way depending who is more successful at executing her elements to gain the most points that day."

    I would consider Nagasu, Flatt, Ando, Kostner, and Lepisto at a comparable overall level, albeit with different strengths.

    Ando's are primarily the jumps, so her success or failure at those will make a big difference in her results.

    Asada I think is a cut above those skaters in basic flow across the ice, so she'd have to make more mistakes to end up behind any of them. Unfortunately, that does happen on occasion. Especially when the mistake is as costly as doubling a planned triple axel in the short program without a backup plan.

    But I don't think any of these individuals "changed the course of figure skating" any more than each other or than Yuna Kim or, say, Shizuka Arakawa or Sasha Cohen or Irina Slutskaya. They're all part of the development of the sport into the IJS era, but I don't think any individual stands out as singlehandedly influential enough to change the course of the sport.

  9. #99
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    Miki's landing the quad and Mao's landing three axels at Oly both made history. Younger generations may try to follow their path. We'll see their effects in the future.

    Plush also changed the course of the trend of men's skating by his comeback. More skaters may have tried the quad because of him.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Are you sure Caro is still better than Laura? The last 5 times they competed at major Intl events Laura has finished ahead of Caro 4 times. (Last 2 Euros + last 2 Worlds + Olympics).

    Laura also finished ahead of Flatt at the Olympics and Worlds this season and beat Mao at the Japan Open.

    Perhaps Laura is lucky that in today's skating 3-4 triples can get you on many podiums.
    No, but she did beat her at Euros 2010, and was skating on home ice. Laura Lepisto has medaled at three Euros (with the worst European field on record), two GP events and one worlds. She beat Mao at a terrible event for her.

    Lets also mention that Rochette didn't compete, and she's never lost to Lepisto.

    I'll echo gkelly, though.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianjyw View Post
    IMHO, the two statements in bold are contradictive. Who in their right mind would try to innovate when they get nothing for trying and falling?
    Lots of people. No guts no glory.

    "The credit belongs to the (one)...who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." (Teddy "Big Stick" Roosevelt)

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    No, but she did beat her at Euros 2010, and was skating on home ice. Laura Lepisto has medaled at three Euros (with the worst European field on record), two GP events and one worlds. She beat Mao at a terrible event for her.

    Lets also mention that Rochette didn't compete, and she's never lost to Lepisto.

    I'll echo gkelly, though.
    I will also echo gkelly (always a wise move ) but my statement about skating in an era when very few triples are needed to make a podium still stands. Think of the GPF this season.

    I happen to like Laura's skating and have no problem with her winning the bronze.
    I also like that the IJS looks for more than just how many clean triples or quads a skater lands in a program.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bijoux View Post
    Yu-na doing three of the same jump and a double at that, three double axels is at least one too many. I guess there will be many who say her double axels were better, prettier than Mao doing her historic 3 3a performance. I'm getting used to it now.
    In her LP, Yu-na has three 2As and six triples, one in triple-triple combination. Of the basic triples, she doesn't have the 3Lo, and she also lacks the 3A. Mao has six triples, including two triple axels, and none in triple-triple combination. She does the 2Lo three times and a single 3T. She doesn't have a 3Lz or 3S. If you want to critcize one skater for not having all triples and doing three double jumps, be fair and apply the same standard to all skaters, even your favorite. 3As don't negate the absence of two essential triples, although they are exceptional accomplishments in themselves.

    As for Miki's quad and Mao's 3As changing the course of figure skating, I don't see it happening when the system rewards quality over quantity, and consistency plays into PCS. Strict UR calls also make skaters doubt themselves. Miki's quad would not have even been ratified in CoP and she has landed it only once, definitely not enough to make a ripple. It may have put her in the record books, but I don't see any other lady attempting it in competition when they struggle to rotate even single triples, let alone triple triples or a quad. Mao is the only current lady to put the 3A in her program, so it's not necessary to keep competitive, and as long as Yu-na beats her with huge margins, I don't see it happening just yet. Mao's influence is still in question. Her career is projected to be long, and the possibilities are numerous. If, for example, Mirai with six triple programs with three 2As, no triple triple and no 3S, beats Mao, I see no reason for skaters risking to master such a difficult jump. If Mao were to dominate the sport, more skaters would probably flock towards the 3A to stand a chance. If this were to establish the 3A as a necessity to remain competitive among the top-tier ladies, Mao could be considered to have "changed the course of figure skating." It's too early to know, though.

    ITA with this:
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly
    But I don't think any of these individuals "changed the course of figure skating" any more than each other or than Yuna Kim or, say, Shizuka Arakawa or Sasha Cohen or Irina Slutskaya. They're all part of the development of the sport into the IJS era, but I don't think any individual stands out as singlehandedly influential enough to change the course of the sport.
    Of the recent skaters, that is, from the last two decades, I would include only Midori Ito, for reasons mentioned before. I'm not sure if I would include the Kwan.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I will also echo gkelly (always a wise move ) but my statement about skating in an era when very few triples are needed to make a podium still stands. Think of the GPF this season.

    I happen to like Laura's skating and have no problem with her winning the bronze.
    I also like that the IJS looks for more than just how many clean triples or quads a skater lands in a program.
    True. My point mainly is that if we have a well skated event, three triples won't cut it. GPF wasn't a well skated event. The Olympics was genuinely considered to be a well skated event. Of those that made the free skate, you'd have to go down to the 14th ranked skater (overall) who skated three or less triples in the long program (got credit for three or less). We had a podium that had a seven, six and four triple skater, and the four triple skater had two triple axels. We had a top ten that was entirely without falls. Name the last time an international event (ladies) had a top ten with no falls in either the short or the free.

    But I don't take much issue with Lepisto's bronze. I like that jumps aren't everything (and I'll argue that it's possible that a realistic weighing of the jumps would come at the expense of a well balanced program, and that's not condusive to the sport's popularity one iota). I don't care for Ando's skating, think Kostner was overmarked, and frankly Phaneuf with a medal means the weight of expectations and I don't think she'd live up to it again.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    But I don't think any of these individuals "changed the course of figure skating" any more than each other or than Yuna Kim or, say, Shizuka Arakawa or Sasha Cohen or Irina Slutskaya. They're all part of the development of the sport into the IJS era, but I don't think any individual stands out as singlehandedly influential enough to change the course of the sport.
    Actually, I tend to think of Sasha as having had a huge influence in the kinds of positions that are ubiquitous in ladies' skating today. I don't know if I'm attributing the trend to the right skater who started it all, but she popularized it the most, I think.

    As for the "quality vs. quantity" debate regarding jumps, I think a missing dimension that CoP needs to address is diversity. Beyond a certain level of quality, I'd put the need to reward diversity of jumps second, and then quantity (i.e. I don't want to see repeated triples until someone has completed or incorporated all the main triples for the respective discipline. For ladies, that means the 5 different triples minus the 3A, unless someone like Mao wants the 3Axel to substitute for another triple, say, the 3Lutz.)
    Last edited by prettykeys; 04-15-2010 at 06:57 PM.

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