04-15-2010, 07:29 PM
leave no stone unturned
04-15-2010, 07:56 PM
Here is a clip of Peggy Fleming winning the 1967 WC in Vienna - the last time it was skated outdoors.
"The 1967 competitions for men, ladies, pairs and ice dancing took place February 28th to March 4th, 1967 in Vienna, Austria on an open air ice rink."
04-15-2010, 08:30 PM
Not really criticizing just one skater, just joking...all this seriousness about two little skaters. BTW Mao is far from my favorite skater....prefer Jo Ro for years for her elegance and style and love Mirai. If Mao goes to Sochi I will root for her unless there is a better American I like. I have to watch videos, I cannot remember what these kids do in each skate or read the list of jumps somewhere. My only real point was that I think that CoP should support knowing and trying all the triples in an Lp, not repeating jumps three times or tacking them on for points. The skaters are just racking up points and the overall progras suffer. Its not the skaters fault its the game they must play. I would only say that 5 women have landed 3a as its so hard. So Mao wanted to be Ito and make history with this phenomenal jump and thought she's maybe outscore Yuna.
Originally Posted by dlgpffps
I have to say I'm awed Mao did this but still don't agree with repeating jumps instead of doing at least one of each triple. Two 3as really belong in the men's LP. Great kudos to Mao but CoP in general is not yet refined and needs to be tweaked. The performances are suffering though its sad it takes all this to try and keep the judges honest. Doing the same jumps for each skater is a good idea. Levels the jumping comp and they can be compared on same jumps.
Hey,I wish they'd go back to school figures so we'd see better basics. Not a fan of CoP.
04-15-2010, 09:43 PM
Exactly! But some people think that under the current CoP, "skaters don't have the incentive to push."
Originally Posted by Mathman
04-16-2010, 07:57 AM
Brian Joubert has pushed himself in general to improve his spins under COP. Patrick Chan has pushed himself to include some devastatingly hard transitions into his jumps. Skaters like Joannie Rochette and Rachel Flatt have pushed themselves to perfect their technique on the edge jumps (and overall) in order to garner the GOEs and avoid UR calls. Asada and Takahashi push themselves to include the hardest jumps because they can. This idea that COP doesn't provide and incentive to push relies on the idea that the only marker of technical brilliance is four revolutions in the air.
Originally Posted by brianjyw
04-16-2010, 10:48 AM
True. However, to be truly technically brillant at the elite level a skater should be able to do a complete set of triple jumps with proficient. This should be a given - not a skater by skater issue. If CoP gave a bonus point for a true seven triple program and a higher start value for the quad - I believe we'd see skaters step up to that level vs. some of the iffy-ness we've seen this past season.
Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue
Jumps seperate the skaters. I love Luncinda Rhu but she was a weak jumper and it hurt her competitivness. In today's skating world - she'd probably be a podium threat. Is that progress or better, faster, higher or just dope spins?
04-16-2010, 01:45 PM
A skater who has a full triple program is superior to one who has a 3a or 3-3, but is missing one or two triple jumps in their jump repetoir? It doesn't make logical sense to me. In the case of Yuna, she doesn't do a 3lp in competition. However, this is not even a high scoring jump. How is she less technically proficient than a skater who has full triple program but can't do a 3-3 or 2-3, which by the way only a handful of women in the world can do?
Originally Posted by Kwanford Wife
04-16-2010, 02:31 PM
Great point. I don't think there are currently many women in the world who could complete a flawless full triple program without problems with UR, flutzing, etc. If so, who are they? In the pre-CoP era, the judging standards were much looser, therefore, a skater receive could receive full credit for "fake" full triple program. But the same skate would probably not pass muster by today's strict technical judging standards.
Originally Posted by Joesitz
04-16-2010, 03:30 PM
By the same token I would get a kick out of seeing some of today's skaters doing school figures.
Originally Posted by Figure88
To learn this discipline would greatly reduce the practice time for 3x3's and 3A's quite a bit.
What we might see instead is better edges, and better control and posture as they changed positions in the freeskate. Maybe more and better multi- directional skating.
It always feels a little shortsighted to call out skaters from earlier eras about edges or urs. And don't forget if they fell there was no rule that gave them credit or points for such obvious mistakes.
Sometimes it is easy to forget that the Ladies in the late 80's and 90's were the first to do all of the triple jumps. I still have not seen a better 3A than Midori - or Tonya for that matter - and this was 20 years ago.
But no doubt the skaters today are training harder, they do more off-ice training, are more conscious about nutrition and many have 3-4 or more coaches/trainers.
They also have the benefit through technolgy of studying the skaters that came before them in a way skaters from the past never had. Coaches can easily tape practices for better feedback and although I don't know much about it - skaters like Patrick Chan are using software for analysis of their jumps.
Persoanlly I cherish so many skaters from the past and the contributions they made to skating.
Peggy was so graceful, Janet not only made evey move meaningful with a flow never seen before, but had a way of connecting with an audience that has rarely been matched.
Other fans can mention other skaters who were the great pioneers of the sport so many of us love to watch today. Carol Heiss, the great champion was the first Lady to do a 2A in competition. Everyone remembers Biellman for her spin but she also was doing a triple lutz back in 1980. Kati is remembered for her theatrical contributions but she also was the first Lady to do the triple flip.
As to these edge calls and UR calls - sometimes they are called very inconsisitently. One expert has said every 3x3 done by Ladies is basically short. Some tech callers are lenient (like in Vancouver where even without replay I saw many urs that were not called) including jumps from the medalists.
Here is a fun clip showing some of the greats from the past:
Last edited by janetfan; 04-16-2010 at 03:43 PM.
04-16-2010, 04:31 PM
I agree, comparing figure skating from pre to post-Cop is like comparing apples to oranges. Two different systems with different program requirements and judging standards. Who can say that a skater like Midori Ito would have succeeded under today's judging system? Yes, her 3A appeared fully rotated. However, she did have problems with her leg wrap and programs are technically more different now with the emphasis on completing difficult combo jumps, transitions etc. etc. that pre-Cop skaters didn't really have to deal with. She might have had stamina issues for example.
Originally Posted by janetfan
Last edited by Figure88; 04-16-2010 at 04:40 PM.
04-16-2010, 04:39 PM
I presume we are no longer talking about skaters who changed the course of figure skating, and I also presume we will settle in and talk about our favorite skaters in the past fifteen years ignoring anything that happened in the past.
That's just as well since no body can recall Wili Boekel, Alois Lutz, Axel Paulsen, Ulrich Salchow, Rittenberger, Mapes, and the ever popular Jackson Haines. But then, I don't believe they changed the course of figure skating as much as they added to it.
Anyway, I'll mention Dick Button who is the only male skater to win two consecutive Olympic Gold Medal, and moreso because he changed the European Open to the European Closed.
04-16-2010, 06:05 PM
Wicked Yankee Girl
The greatest thing about Dick was that he was expected to do at least one thing that had never been seen before every year! Most skaters would be satisfied with just one 'first ever' but Dick was expected to pull a rabbit out of his skates every year.
1. First ever double axel
2. First ever triple loop
3. The flying camel
4. The first double loop double loop combination
5. The first double loop double loop double loop combination
6. The first double axel double loop combination
04-16-2010, 06:09 PM
After reading your post I decided to look for Jackson Haines on YouTube. I didn't expect to find much since he is from the 19th century.
Originally Posted by Joesitz
To my surprise my search for Haines did reveal this gem ........
04-16-2010, 06:49 PM
^ A performance that changed the course of figure skating!
By the way, why hasn't anyone skated to the 1812 Overture?
04-16-2010, 06:57 PM
Good question. I would have no problem with Lucinda Ruh being a podium threat. Her spins were so far and away ahead of the field that I would love to see her get more credit for them. More specifically, if spins were valued higher, she might have done easier jump layouts, been cleaner, skated better etc. Now, I'm not saying she should top the podium or anything, but in a poor year, a podium threat about sums it up.
Originally Posted by Kwanford Wife
The shift we saw with COP was away from the intuitive to the harshly logical, and that's a pretty dramatic shift (and it's not truly complete), and we (enthusiasts and casual fans) still struggle with the change.
Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 04-16-2010 at 07:16 PM.
Reason: finishing a thought