Which skaters “changed the course of figure skating?” | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Which skaters “changed the course of figure skating?”

Kwanford Wife

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
I shall continue my negative trend and add Yuna and Mao to this list... Because I'm tired of hearing how awesome, amazing, and more talented than everybody else - when the reality is that they don't have a full set of triple jumps. Sure, CoP allows for this but having spent my entire life watching skaters struggle to get and keep these jumps - I struggle with the modern ideal of "perfection"

I don't blame the skaters, I blame the game.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I think the skater can start and stop independent of when the music starts or stops

Anyway, I wish some skater would challenge by using "music" like this :laugh:

And yet even with music to guide them - we see skaters every season continue past the music and get penalized for it.

Do they get penalized because they skated a second or two after the music stopped - or because they exceeded the time limit?

It would be IMO hard if not impossible for skaters to time their programs and not go over the time limit without music.
Without music maybe a horn could blast giving the skater a 10 second warning :laugh:
 

snowflake

I enjoy what I like
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
And yet even with music to guide them - we see skaters every season continue past the music and get penalized for it.

Do they get penalized because they skated a second or two after the music stopped - or because they exceeded the time limit?

It is the time from they start moving until they stop that counts. Suppose they have the program in their system.

It would be IMO hard if not impossible for skaters to time their programs and not go over the time limit without music.
Without music maybe a horn could blast giving the skater a 10 second warning :laugh:

Like in gymnastics. In the beam, they have a signal when they have to leap within ? seconds :laugh:
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
There doesn't seem to be anything in the singles and pairs rules that explicitly requires music, but the use of music is implied by a number of the rules, especially regarding the Interpretation component. The rules for singles and pairs say that the music is the skater's choice, except that vocal music with lyrics isn't allowed.

So in theory they could choose silent "music" without deduction, but they would likely suffer in several of the component scores, especially Interpretation.

If most skaters use music, then there wouldn't be any special time indication for those who chose to do without. They'd have to feel the correct amount of time themselves. It would be easier for short programs where the time limit is a maximum -- just choreograph the program to be complete in well under 2:50, and even if it runs a little longer than usual one day it should still be safe. If it runs shorter, there's never any problem.

Fitting right in between 3:50 and 4:10 or between 4:20 and 4:40 without audio cues and with variations in execution would be trickier.

Ice dance is generally all about the music, so skating to silence really wouldn't work there.
Except in this noncompetitive example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKykrKh1mrk
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I see, i

And how quickly that thread turned into a C.O.P bash. Wow. It seems like that is pretty common around here these days...

Seems the 6.0 said the one that can do the most crowd pleasing routine and has some equality in jumps with the rest of the field will win. That is not the case anymore. 99 yard run back is not a touchdown even if it was the best play of the game., a 124 does not beat a 125 even if they tried harder and had a prettier dress - not to mention more fans.

I think there is a huge difference in the philosophies of ordinal scoring versus the Code of Points. The very words "ordinal" and "points" tell the story.

In ordinal scoring the goal that we strive for is that the competitor who skates best ought to win.

In the CoP it is: the skater who scores the most points ought to win.

Best...most.

If we go for "most points," then, yes, this makes figure skating "more like other sports." Is that our goal, to have a sport that is more like other sports and less like itself?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
About "silent music," Michelle Kwan's cut of The Feeling Begins that she used in her 2004 short program ends with several seconds where the music dies to such a low whisper that in the arena it can't be heard at all. Every time Michelle skated it, it looked like she finished behind her music, since she was still skating and you couldn't hear any music.

Plus, the choreography was planned for exactly 2:40 seconds to the dot. At U.S. Ntionals she went over by a second or two, but did not get caught. At 2004 Worlds she did get caught, and took a costly one-tenth deduction in both the technical and presentation marks.

The next year the ISU decided to extend the time limit for the short program to 2:50 seconds. :laugh: (I don't know whether team Kwan lobbied to have the new rule applied retroactively and give Michelle silver instead of bronze for the year before. Seems only fair to me. ;) )
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I think there is a huge difference in the philosophies of ordinal scoring versus the Code of Points. The very words "ordinal" and "points" tell the story.

In ordinal scoring the goal that we strive for is that the competitor who skates best ought to win.

In the CoP it is: the skater who scores the most points ought to win.

Best...most.

If we go for "most points," then, yes, this makes figure skating "more like other sports." Is that our goal, to have a sport that is more like other sports and less like itself?

Maybe not. But "more like sport" and less like "itself" (as it was?)? Absolutely.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I think there is a huge difference in the philosophies of ordinal scoring versus the Code of Points. The very words "ordinal" and "points" tell the story.

In ordinal scoring the goal that we strive for is that the competitor who skates best ought to win.

In the CoP it is: the skater who scores the most points ought to win.

Best...most.

If we go for "most points," then, yes, this makes figure skating "more like other sports." Is that our goal, to have a sport that is more like other sports and less like itself?

I tend to agree with you..... but also can see that taking the meaning of the words "best" and "most" so literally in your example might not be the only way to consider this.

The goal of CoP is to score the most points. But the skater who scores the most points could also be considered the best - since the rules are the same for all the skaters.

Looking back at Vancouver - some have claimed Mao with her 3A's and Plushy with his quads were the best because they both did jumps the Gold medal winners did not even attempt.

Perhaps under 6.0 the results might have been different. But if they were different what would it prove? Would it mean 6.0 decided in the fairest manner possible who the "best" skaters were ?

Isn't that the goal of CoP as well? Did CoP get it wrong in Vancouver?
I only questioned one podium - the bronze in Dance felt wrong to me as I had that team 5th. But the rest of the placements - under the existing rules - seemed OK.

I think the skaters who gave the best Olympic performances were also the same skaters who scored the most points.

Now if I were to consider US Natls - another story altogether :mad:

CoP is still so new. It needs some fine tuning but i think on the whole it does a good job of getting the placements right. A problem I have is with the levels - and how too many skaters are doing the same moves which I think has led to a loss of creativity.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
In Jackson Haines' day there was no such thing as competitive Free Style skating. (After all, someone has to invent a sport before there can be any competitions :) )
Interesting point. Source, please that there was no Free Skating Program attached to the School Figures Sport during Haines' times.

In those days competitions were held in tracing school figures only. Haines won the first U.S. figure skating championship in 1864, but when he tried to embellish his performances by throwing in some dance moves he was basically run out of town.
We all know about School Figures which were even active through Kwan's early years. Was it Annette Poetche(sp) which finally terminated School Figures from competition?
I really didn't know if Haines bothered with competitions.

In Vienna he founded what became known as the Vienna School of figure skating -- essentially, the sport of free skating that we know today, as opposed to school figures. Jackson died young (in 1875) but his students and disciples n the Vienna School extended his work and formed the International Skating Union in 1892. The ISU began the work of organizing figure skating championships which included free style. The first World Championship was held in 1896 -- one imagines, with Haines smiling down in approval. :yes:?
You've done quite a bit on Haines. Did you know, he was born in Canada? and that he invented the sitzspin and that in Roller Artistic skating it is known as a 'jackson'.

Indeed she did. Kronenberger won four consecutive ladies World Championships, 1908-1911 (accoding to Wikipedia. ;) )
But could music and kronenberger have changed the course of figure skating, or was it really Midori Ito? :)
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I see, it was a response. I should have looked into that more but I am still glad that I made the point to people who cannot keep word definitions with the word it belongs to. - maybe another issue there. lololol ~ oh Seani.

Anyhoo, B.O.T.T Henie. Sonja put FS in the attention of the world. Right person at the right time changed the outlook of FS from the world spectator p.o.v. For me personally it was Kwan who was the MOST but I think Dorthy, Scott and Peggy planted the seed in me anyway.

And how quickly that thread turned into a C.O.P bash. Wow. It seems like that is pretty common around here these days. http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...u-na-Kim-s-inf

Seems the 6.0 said the one that can do the most crowd pleasing routine and has some equality in jumps with the rest of the field will win. That is not the case anymore. 99 yard run back is not a touchdown even if it was the best play of the game., a 124 does not beat a 125 even if they tried harder and had a prettier dress - not to mention more fans.

The big thing now is, IS THIS REALLY BEING INSTIGATED or are judges still waxing scoured and as influenced as the audience. And personal adversity being overcome before a skating event SHOULD NOT be taken into consideration. ALL life is relative to individuals and judgment should be based on that one performance and NOTHING else.
Seanibu - I have to agree with you about Sonia popularizing figure skating more than anyone else, but you must understand that today's fans do not want to go back that far and give her credit. They assume it is their national favorite in the 22nd century who popularized figure skating. More contemporary posters just resent her. What I fear the most is History Revisionists at work.

As to CoP v. 6.0. I believe the results are the same. With my own method, I can watch a competition and place the top 5 in order of success. I don't need protocols and until they give me a slo-mo of WETs and URs, I'll just say they are wrong. I'm 98% right on. It was that damn Gottenberg Worlds where I could not decide whether Buttle or Joubert should win. Sometimes it's close and CoP to the rescue.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I think the skaters who gave the best Olympic performances were also the same skaters who scored the most points.
You got it, JanFan. 98% of the time what one sees as the best, are the ones with the most points. That is, if and ony if, the spectator actually did some skating. And, of course one assumes all the judges are on the up and up.
 

Kwanford Wife

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
I tend to agree with you..... but also can see that taking the meaning of the words "best" and "most" so literally in your example might not be the only way to consider this.

The goal of CoP is to score the most points. But the skater who scores the most points could also be considered the best - since the rules are the same for all the skaters.

Looking back at Vancouver - some have claimed Mao with her 3A's and Plushy with his quads were the best because they both did jumps the Gold medal winners did not even attempt.

Perhaps under 6.0 the results might have been different. But if they were different what would it prove? Would it mean 6.0 decided in the fairest manner possible who the "best" skaters were ?

Isn't that the goal of CoP as well? Did CoP get it wrong in Vancouver?
I only questioned one podium - the bronze in Dance felt wrong to me as I had that team 5th. But the rest of the placements - under the existing rules - seemed OK.

I think the skaters who gave the best Olympic performances were also the same skaters who scored the most points.

Now if I were to consider US Natls - another story altogether :mad:

CoP is still so new. It needs some fine tuning but i think on the whole it does a good job of getting the placements right. A problem I have is with the levels - and how too many skaters are doing the same moves which I think has led to a loss of creativity.

Its interesting because you are right in regards to placements under CoP, esp. in terms of the Olympics. My only exceptions to placements being I thought Miki was a bit underscored, Johnny WAAAYY underscored - but that tends to be true since the beginning of skating. Fans disagree with the judges and life goes on.

My biggest issue with CoP are the scores themselves... In Kwanford's Perfect World - technical prowess would be rewarded to ensure the sport continues to be "bigger, faster, higher" - innovation across the board isn't encouraged so skaters don't have the incentive to push. A complete set of triple jumps would also get a bonus over tagging a 2axle onto jumps just to rack up points.

I also have an issue with what I see as leniency towards falls. It makes no sense that an under rotated jump is severly penialized where a fall is not. One thing that 6.0 got right was the harshness of the fall. Again, in my perfect world - I wouldn't give a single point for a fall. Don't throw it, if you can't land it.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I also have an issue with what I see as leniency towards falls. It makes no sense that an under rotated jump is severly penialized where a fall is not. One thing that 6.0 got right was the harshness of the fall. Again, in my perfect world - I wouldn't give a single point for a fall. Don't throw it, if you can't land it.
What a SANE comment!. (It would never happend in Ice Dancing) To see somone sprawled out on the ice is ok except for a -1, and another who continues the flow of the program but was 46 degrees from the "perfect" landing, get trashed. You know how I feel about skaters who can not execute elements by definitions, and who actually benefit by cheating. DUH! Where is the Sport?

Unless there is a review of the major errors of a singles figure skater, the so-called sport will dwindle each year.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Its interesting because you are right in regards to placements under CoP, esp. in terms of the Olympics. My only exceptions to placements being I thought Miki was a bit underscored, Johnny WAAAYY underscored - but that tends to be true since the beginning of skating. Fans disagree with the judges and life goes on.

My biggest issue with CoP are the scores themselves... In Kwanford's Perfect World - technical prowess would be rewarded to ensure the sport continues to be "bigger, faster, higher" - innovation across the board isn't encouraged so skaters don't have the incentive to push. A complete set of triple jumps would also get a bonus over tagging a 2axle onto jumps just to rack up points.

I also have an issue with what I see as leniency towards falls. It makes no sense that an under rotated jump is severly penialized where a fall is not. One thing that 6.0 got right was the harshness of the fall. Again, in my perfect world - I wouldn't give a single point for a fall. Don't throw it, if you can't land it.

I agree with you - but whether or not Miki and Johnny were undermarked - I still did not see them on the podium.

I mentioned "fine tuning" but could have said "adjustments."
I don't agree with the UR rules or the "complete your rotations but fall" situation. :confused:

I think many judges need to be more conscientous about pcs - especially TR, IN and CH.
Do we really need a skater to say "neither one of us has transitions" before judges will recognize that and score them more accurately? :eek:
 

Kwanford Wife

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
I agree with you - but whether or not Miki and Johnny were undermarked - I still did not see them on the podium.

I mentioned "fine tuning" but could have said "adjustments."
I don't agree with the UR rules or the "complete your rotations but fall" situation. :confused:

I think many judges need to be more conscientous about pcs - especially TR, IN and CH.
Do we really need a skater to say "neither one of us has transitions" before judges will recognize that and score them more accurately? :eek:

I agree about Miki and Johnny... but their scores (along with Bezic's comments...grrr...) really upset me because I thought both did better than were marked.

I don't always understand what goes into PCS but I do know that clean and technically superior should always beat out technically safe with a lot of arm flaying... but that's just me.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I agree that there needs to be a better way to score jumps that appear clean and controlled to the naked eye in real time but are moderately underrotated, and I hope that the "intermediate score" proposal for these jumps, or something along those lines, will be adopted.

However, keep in mind that it is only the hardest jumps that score more for a fall if deemed sufficiently rotated than for an otherwise good landing if downgraded. In most cases, a fall on a triple, after subtracting the -3 GOE and the fall deduction, will net less than the base value of a double from the same takeoff. Only for quads and for triple flips and lutzes does -3 GOE and fall deduction on the rotated jump add up to more than 0 GOE for a downgrade or jump with one less revolution. Maybe the Scale of Values should be tweaked a bit more to be consistent for all kinds of jumps about whether a fall or a "clean downgrade" should score higher.

Also, a very high proportion of jumps with falls are also downgraded. So a fall on a triple attempt will often get the base value of a double minus -3 GOE for a double, which comes out to 1.00 or less, so after the fall deduction the net value of the attempt is 0 or less than 0 (negative).
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Interesting point. Source, please that there was no Free Skating Program attached to the School Figures Sport during Haines' times.

Now that you asked, I have to say that I really don't know for sure whether this is true or not. This is the impression that I formed by reading many little snippets of miscellaneous information about the early days of figure skating.

I will have to check out the book that gkelly recommended.

Anyway, my impression is that competitive free skating developed in stages in the form of skaters linking together several continuous school figures by connecting steps.

Here is a very cool book, written in 1898, that is a complete figure skating textbook, describing in great detail all the figures that skaters were expected to show mastery of.

http://books.google.com/books?id=F6cCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR3

In the appendix the rules are given for international competitions, including the 1898 World Championship.

By 1898 there were two phases to the competition, Compulsory Figures and Free Figures. Here are the rules for the Free Figures part of the competition. (By the way, you can page through this book by entering the requested page number as the last part of the url directly in your address bar.)

http://books.google.com/books?id=F6cCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA307

In Free Figures the skater has five minutes and there do not seem to be any specific requirements about which figures and connecting elements must be presented. The performance is judged on the following criteria (very much like the first mark and the second mark in 6.0 judging.)

(a) The contents of the programme performed (difficulty and variety); and

(b) The manner of performance (harmonic composition, sureness, carriage, and movement, etc.)

The rules and method of scoring for Compulsory Figures starts here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=F6cCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA303

Competitions were also held in “United Figures,” aka “hand-in-hard figures” (pairs).

And the new variation at the time was something called “Combined Figures” (synchro), performed by teams of six men all skating figures in unison together to make one big pattern. The table of contents of the book is here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=F6cCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR11
 

Kwanford Wife

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
I agree that there needs to be a better way to score jumps that appear clean and controlled to the naked eye in real time but are moderately underrotated, and I hope that the "intermediate score" proposal for these jumps, or something along those lines, will be adopted.

However, keep in mind that it is only the hardest jumps that score more for a fall if deemed sufficiently rotated than for an otherwise good landing if downgraded. In most cases, a fall on a triple, after subtracting the -3 GOE and the fall deduction, will net less than the base value of a double from the same takeoff. Only for quads and for triple flips and lutzes does -3 GOE and fall deduction on the rotated jump add up to more than 0 GOE for a downgrade or jump with one less revolution. Maybe the Scale of Values should be tweaked a bit more to be consistent for all kinds of jumps about whether a fall or a "clean downgrade" should score higher.

Also, a very high proportion of jumps with falls are also downgraded. So a fall on a triple attempt will often get the base value of a double minus -3 GOE for a double, which comes out to 1.00 or less, so after the fall deduction the net value of the attempt is 0 or less than 0 (negative).

Thanks, G for clarifying this for me... Its one of my biggest pet peeves regarding CoP and I don't think I understood how this worked in terms of scoring. And Less than Zero is one of my all time favorite movies, so I feel better on several different levels...
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Thanks, G for clarifying this for me... Its one of my biggest pet peeves regarding CoP and I don't think I understood how this worked in terms of scoring. And Less than Zero is one of my all time favorite movies, so I feel better on several different levels...
One of my pet peeves, is the "partial credit" given to a failed element which requires a more scrutinized look at a failed jump. How much partial credit can one give to a wrong edge takeoff when the air turns are no longer a part of the counter rotation but that of another type jump with an easier landing? Yet if happens and the easier air turns and landings are given +goes based on another jump - nothing to do with counter rotation.

Negating the whole wrong edge jump would be non controversal and skaters could improve their technique for subsequent competitions.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Mm :) or anyone else, since you search old rules and books (at first i read 1998 and i thought, aaa this is not that old:laugh:), you mentioned before who introduced the music in programs, is there any idea how the rule about no lyrics in music pieces came up and how /why eventually they changed it for ice dance? i had a conversation about it this morning and I remembered I always was embarassed to ask someone. :eek: I m really interested about it.

Wikipedia also refers to the first book ever written about fs, called A Treatise on Skating (1772) written in England.

Now I was reading there I didnt know the Dutch had first the idea of the blade instead of iron platform. But then I remember the novel "the silver skates" that i had read when I was little and they describe the wooden skates in Holland. Although i think the book was more about speed skating.

Thanx for this topic, it made me read different sources, I also found Haines , apart from the permanent blade, was also responsible for adding the toe pick in skates making toe pick jumps possible.
 
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