Trophee Lalique Free Dance and Unofficial Results (SpoilerS)

Hey everyone, I have time to post these results and then Ihave to go. Still not a lot of reports from the free dance, but the Canadians and French swapped places and Belbin & Agosto remain in 4th . Denk/Sta had a fall in the last lift. Oh well, on to Cup of Russia for B/A, their second scoring event. Go Tanith and Ben!! Congrats to the medalists.


FREE DANCE

1 Albena DENKOVA / Maxim STAVISKI BUL 108.03 40.42 67.61 8.25 8.30 8.55 8.60 8.50 0.00 #9
2 Marie-France DUBREUIL / Patrice LAUZON CAN 107.88 44.20 63.68 7.90 7.80 7.90 8.10 8.05 0.00 #8
3 Isabelle DELOBEL / Olivier SCHOENFELDER FRA 104.08 40.00 64.08 7.95 7.90 8.10 8.00 8.10 0.00 #10
4 Tanith BELBIN / Benjamin AGOSTO USA 101.53 40.30 61.23 7.60 7.55 7.60 7.70 7.80 0.00 #11
5 Svetlana KULIKOVA / Vitali NOVIKOV RUS 89.74 35.20 54.54 6.75 6.65 6.85 6.90 6.90 0.00 #7
6 Roxane PETETIN / Mathieu JOST FRA 86.40 35.60 50.80 6.40 6.20 6.30 6.35 6.50 0.00 #6
7 Nathalie PECHALAT / Fabien BOURZAT FRA 77.19 33.10 44.09 5.35 5.35 5.60 5.65 5.55 0.00 #4
8 Kristin FRASER / Igor LUKANIN AZE 75.36 29.50 45.86 5.70 5.65 5.80 5.75 5.75 0.00 #5
9 Anastasia GREBENKINA / Vazgen AZROJAN ARM 71.10 30.30 40.80 5.10 5.00 5.10 5.10 5.20 0.00 #3
10 Mariana KOZLOVA / Sergei BARANOV UKR 65.01 28.20 36.81 4.70 4.40 4.65 4.60 4.65 0.00 #1
11 Alessia AURELI / Andrea VATURI ITA 62.09 27.90 34.19 4.20 3.95 4.35 4.45 4.35 0.00 #2

UNOFFICIAL COMBINED Results

1. Denkova & Staviyski: 210.44
2. Dubreuil & Lauzon: 202.37
3. Delobel & Shoenfelder: 200.30
4. Belbin & Agosto: 195.19
5. Kulikova & Novikov: 171.76
6. Petitin & Jost: 157.44
7. Frasier & Lukanin: 145.77
8. Pechalat & Bourzhat: 144.80
9. Grebenkina & Azrojan: 134.88
10. Kozlova & Baranov: 127.20
11. Aureli & Vaturi: 119.73


Lucy

Poor Tanith and Ben. I was hoping for them to medal. Oh well, 4th place is good too.

Interesting results. Happy for D&L. I love B&A, so I'm hoping this is their only setback of the year. They beat D&S handily at SA, so I'm wondering what kind of mistakes they made, or if D&S had some "home ice advantage". I'm sure B&A will make the podium at CoR. Really wish I could see this competition on TV.

I'm shocked B&A came out behind both D&L and D&S! Well, we shall see how the season progresses for them...

Antilles said:

Interesting results. Happy for D&L. I love B&A, so I'm hoping this is their only setback of the year. They beat D&S handily at SA, so I'm wondering what kind of mistakes they made, or if D&S had some "home ice advantage". I'm sure B&A will make the podium at CoR. Really wish I could see this competition on TV.

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Kind of like B&A had "home ice advantage" at SA? D/S could have very well made adjustments to their program to make it even better.

Anyway I'm just glad that D/L are finally getting recognized! Ttheir program was packed with difficulty, so it's not surprise to me that they finished secon here. I also really LOVE Maxim and Albena, and they beat everyone, even with a mistake!

This was a non-scoring event for Tanith and Ben, but it must have been disheartening for them to finish 4th at Lalique, after winning two medals last season. But that SA gold medal is a saver for them--they should still make the final even if they finish 4th at CoR. Skating in Russia: Navka/Kostomarov, Chait Sakhonovski, Winker/Lohse. A wild card is the British skaters Kerr/Kerr, who have won lots of medals in the European competitions this fall.

The Canadians beating out Delobel/Schoenfelder for silver and both teams having finished up their events, the Canadians have 16 points and D/S 14. That leaves D/S on the bubble.

I haven't seen D/L live, but am really puzzled at the 4th place B/A result. But you could see this coming from the CD result. B/A beat D/S handily in the CD at SA, but were way back in 4th at Lalique in the CD. And the CD's performance by a couple usually do not change that much in a couple weeks. Plus the puzzling OD scores where they had good technical but got hammered for the program elements. This is not good, but they're young and hopefully will learn something from it. Probably what they will learn is not to go to Lalique. Last year they lost to D/S there too, which put them out of the GPF. I don't know if they eat too much the night before or what. B/A and Lalique are not a good combo.

dpp

DORISPULASKI said:

Plus the puzzling OD scores where they had good technical but got hammered for the program elements.

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I don't really see how it's puzzling though, because B&A's strength is the technical mark, they got deservedly hammerd in the program elements. They've been held up in this area for too long. They need to work on their expression, line, extentions, flow, and overall maturity if they want to get higher marks.

Doris, Ptichka et. al.,

I am just beginning to get interested in ice dance and it is not easy for me to tell the difference between a good performance and a bad. (Unlike singles where you know it's not good to fall down on your triple Salchow.)

Still, to me Belbin and Agosto, full of bouncy energy as they are, are not as graceful and elegant as Lang and Tchernyshev or any of the top European teams. Am I just wrong about this, or are there different (equally acceptable) styles for different teams? (My all-time faves are Punsalan and Swallow, especially as pros, and also Usova and Platov.)

Also, would we expect the American teams to have an advantage with "American" dances like the blues, rock and roll, swing, etc.? Or are all of these rhythms universal?

Mathman

the CD's performance by a couple usually do not change that much in a couple weeks

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I agree, considering also that both SA and Lalique had the Austrian Walz for CD

Smiley0884 said:

I don't really see how it's puzzling though, because B&A's strength is the technical mark, they got deservedly hammerd in the program elements. They've been held up in this area for too long. They need to work on their expression, line, extentions, flow, and overall maturity if they want to get higher marks.

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Huh??? Susie Wynn is always praising them in these areas. Especially expression....Tanith besides being one of the the most gorgeous ice dancers ever (not that THAT matters, just wanted to add, LOL) and Ben seem to be very expressive, not too over the top, not robotic...just right.

At what competitions were they overmarked?

Piel

Mathman,

I have not been following ice dance that long either, but there are so many great teams now to watch that it's becoming a favorite for me. I've been trying to understand the basics as well as how they are judged under the COP. I like B&A a lot, but I do agree that they don't have an elegant feel to their skating in comparison to L&T and have some maturing to do in their skating.

Smiley0884

However, I have a question about expression. To me, B&A are not as mature in their line and perhaps in facial? expressions. But, I think that they are perhaps among the most expressive with their bodies. Rewatching their Elvis and Sarajevo FDs, I see a looseness in their body line, which means they sacrifice some elegance for the fact they are more willing to attack (and dance to) their music in a way that's different from the top European couples and Lang & Tchernyshev. Obviously, there is a certain trade-off, but even as they mature, I would not want to see them lose that just to do the "voidy", angsty stuff that many European teams do now. That may never be and doesn't have to be their style. I would want them to have their own style and improve upon things like transitions.

"Home field advantage"

Yes and no. I think that B&A have the technical goods and won fairly at SA, but being at home doesn't hurt and it seems the judges were letting them know that they are highly considered now. I think that Del/Shoen have a good and inventive FD and are more polished, but again being at home doesn't hurt. Safe to say that the judging appears to be leveling off as to high scores and that there is a good competition between the ODs and FDS of Del/Shoe and B&A brewing. As always, it does come down to a matter of preference in some of the Program Components. We could argue all day from opposing viewpoints on whether Del/Shoen's OD was strong enough to place above B&A with a fall or whose Choreography (very subjective) was the best. The judges have their preferences in style and different panels may come to different decisions.

It happens, so I don't worry for Tanith and Ben. They are doing great so far in their senior career and I wish them all the best at Cup of Russia.

Tanith and Ben are way more expressive than some of the other top teams... they may not be the same type of skaters as the russian ice dancers, but since when was that the qualifier(oh wait this is ice dance, DUH! but even if they skate like that, they're American so they're sunk)

The really amazing thing is that D&L beat Denkova&Stavyski in the TES mark! Their FD is extremely difficult, full of category 3 elements.

B&A are almost there. Although they will move up in the world rankings this year, I predict big things for them next year. They're really a breath of fresh air in dance.

Who would have guessed that Ice Dance is probably the most exciting event in figure skating this year?! There's movement all through the competitions, making everything unpredictable. Good to see.

I'm sorry but Plastering on cheesy smiles and "O" faces, to me does not constitute as "expression" If you look at many of their programs it seems almost as if their facial expressions are choreograped, rather than feeling the music, and just letting go. It was more acceptable last year because they were skating to Elvis, but they are skating to WSS, a passionate love story, and not once in their FD did they look each other in right in the eyes and express that passion. Expressing is not just about looking happy, smiley, or what's on your face. True dancers are able to express with their whole bodies, in connection with one another. B&A move to the beat pretty good(sometimes that can be mistaken for good body expression), but they could use their bodies to gain connection with each other and express the feelings of their programs(with the exception of Ben doing Elvis, when he does Jive, he moves exceptionally well, and looks exceptionally good too
When were B&A overmarked? Well, I generally think they are marked fairly, in technical content, but once instance sticks out in my mind where they were grossly over-marked in presentation was last year's nationals. 5.9's for all those mistakes? I don't think so. That's why I like the COP, it's harder for the judges to manipulate the placements through the presentation mark. Not only do B&A need to improve their lines, but they tend to drop their shoulders, so poor posture on top of all that shouldn't garner high presentation marks at all.


Ice castles, I found Anissina and Piezerat to have both that attack and wonderful presentation, so it can be done. Some one on another board pointed out that B&A tend to take quick steps to mask the fact that their lines and edges aren't quite as good as others, and I wish they would work on these things rather than try to mask them. It seems like there is some sudden rush for B&A to try to get a world medal or something. But I think long term, if they worked on all their weaknesses, it would do them a lot of good. It may cause them to be stagnant for a year or so, but they are so young and have so much potentail, they can afford it, if they did that, they would defainetly be a lock for an olympic medal come 2010. Look what it did for Dubreil and Lauzon. Last year they switched coaches, they went back to the basics and reworked their technique. Last year, they didn't have such good results, because it took them a bit to adjust, but this year look at them! They have an amazing FD, and they are having great sucsess so far. I kind of feel that their coach has jipped them. They have plenty of talent, and I would love to see them get some Chris Dean choreo. Wow this was longer than I intened, but I'm sorry if I offended any B&A fans, but this is how I feel. I guess I'm being so hard on them because I can see that potential, but they haven't improved on any of their presentation flaws very much from last year. They are young and they have plenty of time to improve.

Smiley 0884

No offense taken, Smiley 0884.

I get what you're saying and I agree with some of it. Definitely, Anissina & Peizerat are an excellent example of attacking and also having elegance. Their Romeo & Juliet and Carmina Burana are two of my favorite FDs. I just wouldn't say the same for all the top teams now, IMO.

As for B&A fan touchiness, lol : I think it's because Tanith and Ben are a young dance team that's so talented and charismatic that I have such a great expectation and hope for them. But, you're right about things to improve like some aspects of their line, smoothness, and edging. I just think that in all of the "they need to improve this" their presentation gets reduced to being called "juniorish" at times. I did not see Nationals, but I've seen many a skater get high presentation marks with mistakes. Doesn't make it right, but I don't think that the judges have really grossly overmarked them at any other competition. IMO, their facial expressions may seem less "deep" or mature than other more experienced dance teams, but I think they are very sincere in it, they are not at full maturity yet and I don't think they are going for that right now.

ITA, that WSS is a work in progress, but I think that they are capable of making this a great free dance on both sides by Worlds. I think that they could have found some different music, but that's a moot point. I'm not in a rush for them to medal everywhere, but I get annoyed seeing some posts on other boards saying that their SA win was a fluke, etc. etc. That's premature, not to mention disrespectful, IMO. They may not be at the level of Den/Sta, but they are definitely further along then most ice dancers at their ages and they belong among the top 8 teams in the world. I can see that you appreciate their talent and I have no problem with constructive criticism of my favorites. You have made some good points about them, some I just see differently.

As for Trophee Lalique, seems as simple as that they did not skate as well as they did at SA, by the reports, especially in the FD. Some nerves, tired, probably all figure into it. After my initial reaction as a fan, I can see that it's not the end of the world, for sure. I just hope that they know that too and are not discouraged. I don't want them to get caught up in trying to prove they deserved their SA win. If they are focused and relaxed, their skating will speak for itself at COR.


Lucy

It's OK, Lucy everyone has their down competition, and then they bounce back. It's hard when your favorite doesn't do well, and then everyone is criticizing them. I felt that way when C&S finished off the podium at SC (even though I was really happy for D&L) Things like this make you stonger, and a better competitor

Not surprised with the D and S results. Happy for the Canadians and France.

I'm not overwhelmed with B and A. Too many over the top mannerisms. But I haven't seen this yet, so I will stay reserved.

My first Worlds prediction: D and S win gold.

Joe

yes, Smiley, I can sympathize with you on C&S. I was not aware of all the drama really before this year, but some of the remarks about them have definitely been over the top. I have not seen the SC FD yet, so I can't comment on the competition as to the quality of the judging, but it has to hurt to be so heavily criticized. I do wish them well at COR, too.

Oh, and I forgot to add in my other post: ITA that Ben "looks exceptionally good" pretty much all the time

Lucy

Smiley, Thanks for taking the time to explain your other post more fully. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. While not crazy about WSS program and the cuts, and also agreeing that maybe another coach would be better for B&S, when I saw the TL results, I went into a tail spin that B&A were beaten by not just 1 by 2 couples that they had been beating routinely, and in the past this has been the big sign,
" You are from US; you can't dance; accept it and quit." I am somewhat more hopeful for their future now that I hear they did not skate as well as they did at SA. But not much.

When you talk about line, maturity and expression, L&T had that, so did G&S, but they got absolutely nowhere internationally. So B&A have difficulty, now it's line, maturity and expression that are wanted. B&A are not long limbed/gorgeous -- they are never going to be. If that is the requirement, they had better quit now.
B&A do indeed move well to the beat--it's dance, yes? My personal ice dance prejudice is that the first requirement is to move to the beat and correctly express the rhythm you are using. Which is why the DelSchoes are not my fav team.

I totally sympathize about C&S. I like them, and except for her not pointing feet, what else is there to hit them for any more. I felt that last year they made huge strides and got no recognition.
I haven't seen SC and it's not clear we'll ever see their SC program. I am bummed out about this.

However, one plus from COP is that the skaters and their coach can get together, look at the component marks, and say to each other, "How do we work on this?" If the coach can't answer, they need another coach. Personally, I think Spilband's obsession with anorexia as a program for the girls is bad for all of them, even before you get into choreography and expression.
You are probably right that B&A should move to a different coach about now. They have learned all they are going to from Shpilband.
Doris