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Thread: maybe controversial but want to know...ladies bronze vancouver

  1. #1
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    maybe controversial but want to know...ladies bronze vancouver

    I am not unhappy with the podium. I was unhappy how the judges inflated the scores. Also, I feel if Mao had better music, choreo, costume, she might have eked out the gold. I still liked Yu-na's skates but don't get caught up in any hype or national bias, maybe because I'm old and have watched a lot and heard so much hyperbole from all those commentators over the years!

    For me, they both made a case for gold. I wish it were another tie but I fully expected Yu-na to get gold regardless.

    But the question here( and I tread lightly in respect to canada's heroine),is this... was it a gift (bronze) to Joannie for her years of work, the tragic circumstances, the host country? I mean would Canada have gotten really upset if Mirai got third given her excellent, and to many, best performances of the night ladies comp?

    I remember being glad (as an American) that Canada won that hockey game as the closing ceremony right after would have been wakelike if they lost. It seemed fitting and a big happy ending that Canada should have won. (I don't care a fig about hockey and I'm not very nationalistic, BTW). I feel Mirai skated lights out, easily earned the bronze, but I'm not upset Jo Ro won. I am a fan of her skating, but found it very nerve wracking and upsetting to watch. Some were inspired. I was just awed and fearful for her.

    I have a feeling the entire country of Canada would have been very upset had JO Ro not made the podium. Given that Mirai was 16 and at her first Oly, its easy for judges and others to think, she's got another chance. But we know anything can and does go wrong with most of these elite skaters...honest thoughts about the result? Totally fair? Or the only possible correct result given the circumstances?

    I was genuinely impressed with Joannie's sp and her superhuman concentration. I could not see the judges giving a girl like that less than bronze, despite the mistakes. I've rewatched the skates but am no technical expert like some fans here on GS. Honest opinions all respected....
    Last edited by Bijoux; 04-08-2010 at 09:32 PM.

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    I thought she was totally overscored in the sp....

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    In my opinion, Joannie Rochette could legitimately lay claim to the Silver medal as opposed to just a Bronze. In Vancouver, when Mao Asada poped her first toe loop attempt, in my opinion, her second single toe loop should count as her 7th and final jumping pass. As a result, her last jump, a Double Axel should be voided as an 8th jumping pass and therefore, not given any value. Given that element worth 4.85 at the end, if it was voided as it should have been, then Rochette should have gotten the Silver. I was convinced that's what should have happened when I saw it live there in the Coliseum. Somehow, the ISU was very worried about any controversy in Vancouver and the Technical Panel was clearly not going to get dragged into a potentialy explosive call - just imagine how Japan would have reacted if the call to void Asada's last Double Axel as an 8th jumping pass had been called. Despite that, I refused to believe the call was anything but an honest attempt to deal with the situation as opposed to some conspiracy theory that some people spreaded re: Japanese companies have basically stacked the cards against Kim and Rochette for that event seeing that most of the major corporate sponsors are Japanese. In hindsight though, seeing how Yu-Na Kim's layback spin was voided in her Torino SP, it does make me cringe a little bit because Asada's error in Vancouver was almost identical to that of Kim but the difference in treatment is almost inexplicable. Yet, we never heard from the Canadians complaining about the results though even though Skate Canada could have filed a protest. My guess is nobody was in a mood for another controversy, especially given the tragedy that Rochette was facing at that time.

    As for the chatter re: somehow Mirai could have gotten the Bronze. sigh... Look, she was 5th in the Free Skate. It seems to me, the few people who wonder if Mirai could have gotten the Bronze seemed to forget that so called brilliant Bronze derserving FS is only 5th best in Vancouver, not even 4th place. And we haven't even considered the fact she was 6th in the SP. How do you go from 6th in the SP + 5th in FS = 3rd overall? There is just no legitimate claim whatsoever.

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    This topic was already discussed in the Ladies LP. But regarding Mao's popped toe loop. From rewatching it, I noticed that she really only tried it once which she popped. I dunno if her foot getting caught in the ice should be counted as an attempt. Whereas at Worlds, Yuna clearly started doing her spin on the first attempt.

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    But Wally, that's part of the question...look at that freeskate....it deserved better than 5th. And in order to get that podium, they could not give Miarai the scores she deserved, imo.
    Can you or someone give a synopsis technically of Mirai's LP? Artistically I found it georgeous and SO MANY people thought it was the performance of the night. Yu-Na didn't skate with that freedom, charm, joie-de-vivre. Though it was technically different, I felt like I was watching Tara's lights out Nagano LP or Sarah's joyful, spunky SLC LP. I know she didn't do two triple/triples but the quality of all she did was superb and clean and authentically a joy to watch. Her GOE's should have been higher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bijoux View Post
    Can you or someone give a synopsis technically of Mirai's LP? Artistically I found it georgeous and SO MANY people thought it was the performance of the night. Yu-Na didn't skate with that freedom, charm, joie-de-vivre. Though it was technically different, I felt like I was watching Tara's lights out Nagano LP or Sarah's joyful, spunky SLC LP. I know she didn't do two triple/triples but the quality of all she did was superb and clean and authentically a joy to watch. Her GOE's should have been higher.
    Since you are the one who is laying the claim that Nagasu was underscored, why don't you please start by telling me what exactly was underscored here:
    Triple Lutz + Double Toeloop + Double Toeloop 8.60 0.60 9.20
    Double Axel + Triple Toeloop 7.50 1.40 8.90
    Triple Flip 5.50 0.00 5.50
    Flying Sit Spin 3 2.60 0.40 3.00
    Layback Spin 4 2.70 1.40 4.10
    Spiral Sequence 2 2.30 1.00 3.30
    Triple Lutz 6.60 0.20 6.80
    Triple Loop + Double Axel + SEQ 7.48 0.20 7.68
    Double Axel 3.85 1.00 4.85
    Triple Toeloop 4.40 0.80 5.20
    Straight Line Step Sequence 2 2.30 0.50 2.80
    Change Foot Combination Spin 4 3.50 1.00 4.50

    Totals Executed Elements 57.33 65.83

    Program Components Unfactored Score Factor
    Choreography/Composition 7.55 1.60
    Transitions/Linking Footwork 7.25 1.60
    Interpretation 7.60 1.60
    Performance/Execution 7.70 1.60
    Skating Skills 7.75 1.60
    Factored Program Components 60.56

    Can you please explain which element(s) or which component(s) you felt was underscored and by how much? And why should that add up to a Bronze medal?

    Don't get me wrong, I have been asked this kind of question a lot and generally adopt a somewhat skeptical attitude towards any such claim. Since you or anyone else want to put forward such a claim, fine by me, but it's up to you or anyone else interested to justify how that 12.49 points difference can be overcome. Keep in mind, though Rochette' TES base value was in fact higher than Nagasu as well so despite failing to do her 2nd Double Axel, Nagasu still began at a lower base mark than Rochette, so unless you want to claim that the Technical panel also erred somewhere else, which is even harder to prove, all your justification will have to come from the GOE and perhaps, the Components as well and have to be sufficient to overcome the gap in the base value as well. As for the "SO MANY" people think like me claim, I can tell you that won't work. Skating is not a popularity contest, and if you really want to go that route, I will glady refer you the Time 100 poll since both Kim and Rochette are on there but Nagasu isn't.
    Last edited by wallylutz; 04-08-2010 at 10:31 PM.

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    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Since you are the one who is laying the claim that Nagasu was underscored, why don't you please start by telling me what exactly was underscored here:
    Triple Lutz + Double Toeloop + Double Toeloop 8.60 0.60 9.20
    Double Axel + Triple Toeloop 7.50 1.40 8.90
    Triple Flip 5.50 0.00 5.50
    Flying Sit Spin 3 2.60 0.40 3.00
    Layback Spin 4 2.70 1.40 4.10
    Spiral Sequence 2 2.30 1.00 3.30
    Triple Lutz 6.60 0.20 6.80
    Triple Loop + Double Axel + SEQ 7.48 0.20 7.68
    Double Axel 3.85 1.00 4.85
    Triple Toeloop 4.40 0.80 5.20
    Straight Line Step Sequence 2 2.30 0.50 2.80
    Change Foot Combination Spin 4 3.50 1.00 4.50

    Totals Executed Elements 57.33 65.83

    Program Components Unfactored Score Factor
    Choreography/Composition 7.55 1.60
    Transitions/Linking Footwork 7.25 1.60
    Interpretation 7.60 1.60
    Performance/Execution 7.70 1.60
    Skating Skills 7.75 1.60
    Factored Program Components 60.56

    Can you please explain which element(s) or which component(s) you felt was underscored and by how much? And why should that add up to a Bronze medal?

    Don't get me wrong, I have been asked this kind of question a lot and generally adopt a somewhat skeptical attitude towards any such claim. Since you or anyone else want to put forward such a claim, fine by me, but it's up to you or anyone else interested to justify how that 12.49 points difference can be overcome. Keep in mind, though Rochette' TES base value was in fact higher than Nagasu as well so despite failing to do her 2nd Double Axel, Nagasu still began at a lower base mark than Rochette, so unless you want to claim that the Technical panel also erred somewhere else, which is even harder to prove, all your justification will have to come from the GOE and perhaps, the Components as well and have to be sufficient to overcome the gap in the base value as well. As for the "SO MANY" people think like me claim, I can tell you that won't work. Skating is not a popularity contest, and if you really want to go that route, I will glady refer you the Time 100 poll since both Kim and Rochette are on there but Nagasu isn't.
    Exactly! Joannie attempted 7 triples in the LP whereas Mirai only attempted 6. Rochette did 3Lutz+2toe+2loop as opposed to Nagasu's 3Lutz+2toe+2toe. Jo repeats the 3Sal, which earns more points than Mirai's repeated 3toe. Rochette attempts 4 triples after the 2-minute mark bonus while Nagasu attempts 3 triples after that point. Jo skates with more maturity, power, and better edge work than Mirai, who at times still shows a junior level to her basic skating, I think.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 04-08-2010 at 10:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz
    I will glady refer you the Time 100 poll since both Kim and Rochette are on there but Nagasu isn't.
    See? Mirai is robbed again!

    I think the editors of Time magazine are in cahoots with the ISU judges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bijoux View Post
    I am not unhappy with the podium. I was unhappy how the judges inflated the scores. Also, I feel if Mao had better music, choreo, costume, she might have eked out the gold. For me, they both made a case for gold. I wish it were another tie but I fully expected Yu-na to get gold regardless.
    That's very interesting. With a singled 3T and a URed 3F? I wanted to single out this comment because it strikes me as odd. I would like to ask by what virtues a skater should be on the podium according to your standards. Everyone has different ones. Why should Mao have won OGM? Why should Mirai have won bronze, despite her poor SP score? Which scores would you have given her two programs? A skater could have the skate of the night, but that doesn't necessarily entitle them to a medal. Wallylutz has already posted Mirai's LP protocol. Your initial post seems to suggest that Joannie's scores were inflated due to homeground advantage + pity. Well, here's Joannie's:

    3Lz+2T+2L 8.80 1.20 10.00
    3F 5.50 -1.80 3.70
    3Lo 5.00 1.40 4.80
    Fly. Change foot sit spin Lv4 3.00 0.40 3.40
    Spiral Sequence Lv4 3.40 1.40 4.80
    3Lz 6.60 -0.20 6.40
    3T+3S+SEQ 7.48 0.20 7.68
    2A+2A+SEQ (=>just a 2A) 3.85 -1.28 2.57
    Change foot combination spin 3.50 0.50 4.00
    3S 4.95 1.40 6.35
    Circular Step Sequence Lv3 3.30 0.70 4.10
    Flying sit spin Lv4 3.00 0.40 3.40

    Total Executed Elements: 58.38/62.80

    PCS
    Choreography/Composition 8.65
    Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.30
    Interpretation 8.70
    Performance/Execution 8.55
    Skating Skills 8.60
    Total: 68.48

    I would like to ask which specific element scores were inflated. I thought Joannie was nervous, but I have nothing to take away from her choreography, transitions, interpretation and skating skills. If anything, performance could have suffered a little. She skates with class and maturity. Her transitions are among the top of the pack. Her skating skills are stronger than Yu-na's or Mao's. If Joannie had executed that additional 2A, she would've won OSM in Mao's stead. I thought Mirai was underscored, but not so much to take bronze. Scores are important, but the placing much so. I thought the placing was right.

    I'll also include Joannie's SP protocol. No one can win just by the SP, but one can definitely lose by it. I asked that you present the scores you'd give each skater because it would be interesting to see if they closed the SP score difference. Mirai scored 63.76. Joannie scored 71.36.

    3Lz+2T 7.30 1.00 8.30
    3F 5.50 1.60
    FSSp4 3.00 0.30
    2A 3.50 1.60
    SpSq4 3.40 1.80
    LSp2 1.90 0.20
    SlSt3 3.30 0.80
    CCoSp4 3.50 0.50
    Total: 31.40/ 39.20

    Skating Skills 8.10
    Transitions/ Linking footwork 7.70
    Performance/Execution 8.15
    Choreography/Composition 7.95
    Interpretation 8.30
    Total 32.16

    I'd also like to mention, though, that there definitely is a judging "corridor" and what seems to be a homeground advantage (check the judge interview on a different thread). I can't say Joannie did not benefit from such things, but I think her performances alone won her the bronze.

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    Attempted Jump

    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    This topic was already discussed in the Ladies LP. But regarding Mao's popped toe loop. From rewatching it, I noticed that she really only tried it once which she popped. I dunno if her foot getting caught in the ice should be counted as an attempt. Whereas at Worlds, Yuna clearly started doing her spin on the first attempt.
    First, I am not aware of whatever conversation you may have had on this issue since I only started to frequent this place after the Olympic Games. Here is how I would have justified voiding her Double Axel. First, here is the reference to the ISU rule in question for which I believe Ms. Asada violated:

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    ref. page 15 under <<Attempted Jump>>

    In some cases, which need to be decided by the Technical Panel, the preparation for the take-off without leaving the ice might be also called an
    attempt, e.g. a loop-jump take-off when the skater falls before leaving the ice,
    or a skater steps onto the forward take off edge of an Axel and pulls back the
    free leg and arms, starts the forward movement to jump into the air with the
    free leg and arms passing through forward but at the last moment does not
    leave the ice
    , etc.


    By definition, an Attempted Jump does not require the skater's body to leave the ice. In practice, this is commonly applied by the Technical Panels to void a jump attempt in all the competitions I have been. So the precedents on this is very well established. No reason to believe the experienced Technical Panel in Vancouver wasn't aware of this.

    Here is the offending element in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDo1a...elated#t=2m38s

    At 2m41s, we can clearly see that she already entered into the take off position for a toe loop jump, in fact, her upper body was already starting to prepare to rotate but half a second later, she slipped of her edge and botched the attempt. Nevertheless, from 2m40s to 2m42s, there was a clear preparation into a toe loop attempt. If she hadn't slip off on that edge at 2m41s, her body would be in the air by 2m42s. There is no doubt a jump attempt was made and therefore, the single toe loop that followed would have to considered the 7th and final jumping pass.

    The final score that Asada received was 205.50 vs. Rochette, 202.64, a difference of 2.86 points. The 8th jumping pass that Asada performed was given 3.85 points in base value plus 1 point in GOE for a total of 4.85 points. If this amount was deducted from 205.50, it means her total would have been 200.65, therefore, below Rochette's 202.64. As such, the Olympic Silver medal should have been given to Joannie Rochette. To be honest, I haven't reviewed the tape until today, it was crystal clear to me when it happened as I was there in the Coliseum, in fact sitting closer to the ice than the Technical Panel actually were, who sat behind the judges on an elevated platform. I remember being quite surprised at Asada's score as the 130+ score signaled to me that the Technical Panel chose not to call that an Attempted Jump, a call that I felt was incorrect at the time. Nevertheless, the rules did give the Technical Panel the final discretion on such designation. Now, I don't believe there was any conspiracy theory as some people suggested. The rules have been followed but in my view, if that wasn't an Attempted Jump, what do you think Asada was doing then skating backward with her upper body prepared for a classic top loop take off and her body initiated the rotation already? Also, I also know from all of her previous competitions this past season that Asada's Triple Toe Loop is attempted with her body parallel to the judging panel, not facing the judging panel as her single toe loop ended up doing. All evidences pointed toward that being an Attempted Jump. So I had to respectfully disagree with the call. Besides, Rochette and her friends from her hometown (Rochette gave them special accreditation pass only given to friends and family of athletes) were very happy with the Bronze. Her friends were crying out of joy as they sat behind me. So while I knew at the time that Rochette was probably deprived of a Silver, I didn't want to tell them that, I don't want them to feel that Rochette has been cheated because nobody was cheated. Disagree with the results all you want, it's not right to claim someone is cheating or underscored/overscored unless you have evidence like how Marie Reine Le Gougne was caught.

  11. #11
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Holy cow@!!@!@## I had the feeling something was wrong at oly.
    Gold: YuNa
    Silver: Jo Ro
    Bronze: Mirai
    4th : Asado

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    Thanks for the thorough explanation wallylutz. I love reading your stuff. I was wondering if that was the case, but I couldn't get myself to start a fight with the Mao ubers here because I was too happy about Yu-na's gold. Anyways, what's done is done. Mao got silver. Joannie has bronze. But I do hope ISU becomes more consistent with applying its rules.

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    The rule stated above was for what happened to Mao at 2008 worlds not the 2010 Olympics.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOwrOxjLRGE

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    this Olympics were a bit boring and predictable for us, boarding fans. don't get me wrong, the competition level was extremely high, but trying to create controversy and wuzzrobbed in case of Nagasu's skate over Rochette's, clearly indicates that we didn't have our dose of drama and bitching over results as some of the past Olympic Games
    maybe u should have started your thread about S/Z's gold, or Evan vs. Plushy (dunno why they're so close in the score, and I loathe Lysacek) or D/S vs. B/A in dance

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bijoux View Post
    I am not unhappy with the podium. I was unhappy how the judges inflated the scores. Also, I feel if Mao had better music, choreo, costume, she might have eked out the gold. I still liked Yu-na's skates but don't get caught up in any hype or national bias, maybe because I'm old and have watched a lot and heard so much hyperbole from all those commentators over the years!

    For me, they both made a case for gold. I wish it were another tie but I fully expected Yu-na to get gold regardless.

    But the question here( and I tread lightly in respect to canada's heroine),is this... was it a gift (bronze) to Joannie for her years of work, the tragic circumstances, the host country? I mean would Canada have gotten really upset if Mirai got third given her excellent, and to many, best performances of the night ladies comp?

    I remember being glad (as an American) that Canada won that hockey game as the closing ceremony right after would have been wakelike if they lost. It seemed fitting and a big happy ending that Canada should have won. (I don't care a fig about hockey and I'm not very nationalistic, BTW). I feel Mirai skated lights out, easily earned the bronze, but I'm not upset Jo Ro won. I am a fan of her skating, but found it very nerve wracking and upsetting to watch. Some were inspired. I was just awed and fearful for her.

    I have a feeling the entire country of Canada would have been very upset had JO Ro not made the podium. Given that Mirai was 16 and at her first Oly, its easy for judges and others to think, she's got another chance. But we know anything can and does go wrong with most of these elite skaters...honest thoughts about the result? Totally fair? Or the only possible correct result given the circumstances?

    I was genuinely impressed with Joannie's sp and her superhuman concentration. I could not see the judges giving a girl like that less than bronze, despite the mistakes. I've rewatched the skates but am no technical expert like some fans here on GS. Honest opinions all respected....
    I do not see much controversy over the standing because Mirai just did not have that reputation scores. Even though she skated extremely well, it's just not gonna happen.

    I thought Miki was undermarked in terms of reputation scores. She was Worlds Bronze Medalist, winner of two GP events, and 2nd at GPF and both her SP and LP were beautiful and nearly clean.

    But I think that both Rochette and Mirai did better than Miki overall.

    I am surprised at anyone objecting to the Gold. Yuna was clearly the winner there. There have been many talks that SP scores should have been closer between Mao and Yuna and that her LP score was very overmarked. But I've never heard anyone complaining that Yuna shouldn't have won. What's controversial was her winning LP at Worlds as Tara pointed out. Johnny said that Yuna seemed hating to be there after the first fall. But that was a different Yuna Kim than that in Oly.

    Mao vs. Rochette. Both made at least two visible misakes in LP. So I am fine Mao with clean two 3As won over Rochette.

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