Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 98

Thread: maybe controversial but want to know...ladies bronze vancouver

  1. #76
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    Earlier in this thread there is a mention of Mao's questionable 3t was similar to YuNa's questionable layback in her sp at worlds. To me there is a difference, Mao did not give up trying, therefore she added the 2a, but YuNa did not try to do another layback. If Yuna gave layback another try and was denied the credit then we can "cringe" and cried aboutthe injustice. Since YuNa herself already considered she had attempted a layback, and didnot try another one, then obviously the juges won't give her the layback credit.
    Sorry, first of all, you need to get the facts right. That's not what happened at all. She did proceed to perform a layback spin after the failed turn, see here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZLjm...elated#t=1m19s

    She did a full fledge layback spin after that botched attempt.

    BTW, just to clarify, I brought up the layback spin in Kim's 2010 SP as a rhetorical question because someone was being obstinate about Asada's botched 3T was just, you know, "skating backward with no actual purpose" and then claim that skaters make all kinds of turns all the time. I said, well, if we are going that route, as stupid as that may sound, then Kim must have been just trying a new choreography with that turn on ice. Of course, Kim's misstep in her 2010 SP is a botched spin, no doubt about it.

  2. #77
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,178
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix347 View Post
    Seeing the outcry about how Mirai should have won the bronze medal already, can you imagine the furor that would have ensued if the technical panel had disallowed Mao's last jumping pass (2A) due to the fact that she attempted the toe-loop twice and ended up with Mao getting the bronze medal?

    That would have destroyed any kind of satisfaction that Joannie would have gotten from the silver medal. There would have been a lot of accusation about "Canadian favoritism."
    I think Joannie would have been quite content to grab the silver medal and run, accusations and Internet outrage notwithstanding.

    This happens all the time in CoP judging. Everybody in the arena and millions watching on TV are certain that one skater performed the best. But then the tech specialist reviews the slo-motion and says, "Haha, fools, the joke's on you. That skate was, in fact, crap, according to the CoP."

    This happened at U.S. Nationals, for instance. After Mirai Nagasu's sLP, everyone in the place, including Mirai, knew that she had skated great and won the championship. But no, in reality she skated poorly (so says the CoP) and barely hung onto the second Olympic spot.

    This leaves the audience feeling like they have been the victims, once again, of an elaborate practical joke. In my opinion, skating has taken an inward turn. The CoP is a fine system for skaters, parents, coaches, ISU officials and skating insiders. But something is missing from the equation.

  3. #78
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,178
    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    lol...agree with everything. Do you think it's good or fair? I'm not sure about it either way. It sounds like a good idea, but I don't like to see dirty plays either (I don't watch much hockey so I don't know how bad it is...)
    Interestingly, in the playoffs the players tend to clean up their acts voluntarily. There is no silly glove-dropping, cheap shots just to please the audience, revenge fights, etc. All of this goes on during the regular season because the fans expect it.

    But during the playoffs, the players are there to win the Stanley Cup, not to provide a circus for the fans.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hart-Fuller_debate

    That's a reference to the debate we studied in that class. When the application of a rule/law is unclear for a certain situation, does one investigate the meaning of the writing, or the possible intent, for guidance?
    Thanks for that reference! So, basically, the CoP takes the positivist position, while 6.0 judging weighed in on the side of natural law.

  4. #79
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Texas, United States
    Posts
    4,957
    So essentially, it could have gone either way. Mirai was a bit underscored in the SP and Joannie a bit overscored in the LP. I would have had Mirai beat Joannie in the LP, but overall I think Joannie actually deserved to beat Mirai, but only by a couple points (not 10+ like she did). But you know what, the Olympics were in Canada, Joannie's mom died, she skated well and the only skater who could have arguably beat her was 16 and a bit juniorish, and not obviously better, so I think it was ok. Joannie's bronze in Vancouver was much less controversial IMO than Laura's bronze in Torino or Alissa's gold at 09 nats or Carolina's silver at 08 Worlds. I think it was fine.

  5. #80
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    747
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    She did a full fledge layback spin after that botched attempt.
    It seems like rules are striaighter in the sp.

    BTW, just to clarify, I brought up the layback spin in Kim's 2010 SP as a rhetorical question because someone was being obstinate about Asada's botched 3T was just, you know, "skating backward with no actual purpose" and then claim that skaters make all kinds of turns all the time. I said, well, if we are going that route, as stupid as that may sound, then Kim must have been just trying a new choreography with that turn on ice. Of course, Kim's misstep in her 2010 SP is a botched spin, no doubt about it.
    LOL, Mao got the benefit of the doubt from the tech guys. As a skater, she can only try and not to give up, how the tech guys and judges call it is out of her hands. She gave a try and won a silver. I honestly do not think the tech guys were thinking about corp or national sponsorship when they made the call. Since Skate Canada did not raise a question, maybe they knew they did not have much of a case. Skate Canada did not back down in Salt Lake, and if they had a case in VAncouver, I don''t think they would back down.

    (And I regret bringng up the Salt Lake mess)
    Last edited by rtureck; 04-11-2010 at 06:21 PM.

  6. #81
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,178
    Quote Originally Posted by chronos13
    Park Ji-Sung (Manchester United), Lee Chung-Yong (Bolton Wanderers), Pak Se-Ri (LPGA Hall of Fame)...
    Off topic, but are "Park" and "Pak" two different unrelated family names in Korean, or are they two different ways of rendering the same name into English?

  7. #82
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Seoul, Korea
    Posts
    262
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Off topic, but are "Park" and "Pak" two different unrelated family names in Korean, or are they two different ways of rendering the same name into English?
    Absolutely the same name. The pronunciation is close to PAK but many people also use PARK too.

  8. #83
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Watching the sunset
    Posts
    2,793
    Quote Originally Posted by sunny0760 View Post
    Absolutely the same name. The pronunciation is close to PAK but many people also use PARK too.
    I am not Korean. But to me, Pak sounds more familiar (sounds more similar), but for English-speaking ppl, Park may be easier to remember.

  9. #84
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    282
    Quote Originally Posted by chronos13 View Post
    Before you make comments like this, please do your research and you'd understand that the Secretary General of the United Nations is South Korean. Korean celebrities (TVXQ, BoA, Lee Young Ae, Song Hye-kyo, Bae Yong Joon and Rain) are also the most popular of all throughout Asia due to the "Korean Wave" of pop culture, and they also have the highest paychecks in the world outside of Hollywood with figures reaching past $10 million a year. Finally, there are plenty of Korean sports stars such as Park Tae-Hwan (2008 Olympic Gold Medalist in swimming), Park Ji-Sung (Manchester United), Lee Chung-Yong (Bolton Wanderers), Pak Se-Ri (LPGA Hall of Fame), Choo Shin-Soo (Cleveland Indians), and more.
    Don't count out Chan-Ho Park who's going have the most career wins recorded by any Asian pitchers in MLB by the end of this season, and Y.E. Yang who is the first and only Asian golfer to win a PGA major championships (over Tiger Woods ).

    BTW, the original poster sounds very ignorant.
    Last edited by Basics; 04-11-2010 at 11:05 PM.

  10. #85
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Watching the Wheels
    Posts
    4,984
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This happens all the time in CoP judging. Everybody in the arena and millions watching on TV are certain that one skater performed the best. But then the tech specialist reviews the slo-motion and says, "Haha, fools, the joke's on you. That skate was, in fact, crap, according to the CoP."
    I think it has been happening prior to the change from 6.0. I'm sure you could think of more instances than I because of your knowledge of the history in FS. Thinking that skaters are a "little" - lol - more outspoken than in the past this keeps the controversy theory fire burning. It maybe not as many either, yet there was controversy with the 6.0. Still j.m.o So with the change of the C.O.P giving higher importance to "technical aspects" we have an audience that still is subject to the "performance value." There is more than a couple of reasons why the C.O.P came about and one that made it necessary.

    I don't feel that the opinions of people who see one skater and think that she was better than another when "performance" is an aspect of score and think differently of the outcome is "crap" lol. I think I see what you mean but all fans of sports suffer the same fate. Judgment call from an staff / personnel (or whatever ) to "call it like they see it" and we fans are always going to be saying our favorite was better and try and prove it just as fans of sports have done.

    I did feel that shared opinion around here that there was some "surprise" OR "disapproval" for the out come. I thought there was going to be a different outcome if I was to score what I felt was best.

    I know this sounds a little of topic, the thing I worry about is skating not being as "fun" do to lack of "artistic impression" and less want to be involved and we wind up watching Robots on ice.

    Trying to get b.o.t. the skating I saw placed all within the top 3 all in the top 3. I cannot watch one of them subjectively but she is i.mo. always a contender and deserves one of the top 3 spots in every performance I have seen of hers. JR was the best I have ever seen her skate and yes it had some "issues" but all of her routines have had issues that I have seen. Marai I think put herself right where she wanted to be. Ms. Kim *bow bow* that was exquisite (yes she was not flawless but se was less than anyone I think I have ever seen skate ever ... did I say EVER?. But Maria and Rachel were still my "2 favorite."

    There we have it, the Standings are the top 4 are were they belong. I am satisfied!

    I think it is great that fans squabble, I think we should. I love on of MMs post placing silver in forth and moving up the standings.

    Anyhoo "controversy in C.O.P I don't think is because of the C.O.P. The C.O.P is a part of judging a sport - ALL SPORTS HAVE THEM by some name - so it is going to fuel the fire. Look at the tie breaker decision in Football, that is a LOAD OF "controversy" also. Ah sports, got to love them!!!!!

  11. #86
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,702
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This happened at U.S. Nationals, for instance. After Mirai Nagasu's sLP, everyone in the place, including Mirai, knew that she had skated great and won the championship. But no, in reality she skated poorly (so says the CoP) and barely hung onto the second Olympic spot.

    This leaves the audience feeling like they have been the victims, once again, of an elaborate practical joke. In my opinion, skating has taken an inward turn. The CoP is a fine system for skaters, parents, coaches, ISU officials and skating insiders. But something is missing from the equation.
    That's such a sweeping statement. Not everyone thought she did great. If you digged up the old threads, a lot of people saw several URs in her LP in real time. They just didn't know how generous the tech caller was.
    The audience who followed Mirai didn't feel like they have been the victims because she got many many downgrades just a few weeks before nationals.

  12. #87
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
    True. I'm glad there was a thorough discussion of the attempt rule, though. It was enlightening. Just wonder what would have happened if Joannie had jumped that last 2A and won silver in Mao's stead. I still see controversy. Mao's fans would have trumped the "three 3As" card; Joannie's, overall excellence and the "whole package." It could've been as ugly as Lysacek vs. Plushenko with the same reasoning for both sides. I'm glad that had not happened, just as glad as I am that Mao did not lose to Yu-na with a clean performance. That would have been very, very ugly.
    On paper, if Joannie completed her 2A+2A sequence, the difference in base mark alone should be enough to give her the Silver assuming no negative GOE. I had the chance to catch her glance right before she did her 2A and I still remember her face even today is that she seemed so...difficult to describe, a combination of tired, laborious, trying too hard or thinking too much. Double Axel is an easy jump for such an elite athlete and for her to completely give up on the 2nd Axel or not place a double toe there instead, which is her normal back up plan if the 1st 2A is not solid enough, it says to me her problem on that jump is mental. I had a hint she was going to have trouble with that jump when I saw her particular glance.

    Later, she told the press that if her mother were there, she would have questioned her why she gave up on the 2nd Axel. The reality is though, Joannie did the right thing. When she lost her balance and had to put her free foot down - that extra little step would automatically void any jumps she attached at the back of the 1st jump, let it be a combo or sequence.

    In comparison, I think the reason why Asada only did a single toe after the stumble/botched entry was because she probably recalled that she should not try to repeat a jump that she just missed as any coach would have told their students so the single toe was in fact an aborted jump as she probably had enough speed and strength to do a triple toe there if she really wanted to. Ironically, Tracy Wilson and Kurt Browning referred to this "repeat element error" in their comments on Yu-Na Kim's missed layback spin as a major error except their comment was misplaced. Kim in fact did the right thing as there was little to no risk that her two other spins could be voided by her attempt to cover up her missed layback spin. Spins and jumps have different "attempted" rule where the jumps definitely carry a greater risk of causing subsequent elements to be voided than spins. Though if Wilson and Browning had said that when Asada missed her Triple Toe, it would have been spot on.

    This may seem complicate but it really isn't. Though without a doubt, human judgment is necessary to interpret these rules just as other sports like speed skating or ice hockey. Someone said there is something wrong if the crowd can't comprehend the figure skating results such as Mirai Nagasu not winning the U.S. Nationals. I have to ask though, many other sports, such as speed skating where the first one to cross the line wins - can't be any more objective than that - also have a component where human judgment is involved as well. In Vancouver, I saw ISU referees handing out DQ and stripping some people or teams of their timed 1st place finish - human judgment overriding the timer, isn't that the same as Tech. Panel downgrading jumps? I'd even say that downgrades is far less draconian than DQ because a skater may not lose anything due to a downgrade but a DQ, you are left with absolutely nothing. By comparison, if Nagasu had been compared to a speed skater, her outcome in Spokane would have been compared to her Silver medal being stripped and Wagner & Cohen move a up a spot each. Would the crowd still wonder in ? Even in ice hockey, referees have also disqualified scored goals as well. There too, there is human judgment involved. So why is that figure skating alone getting so much criticism as a judged sport even though pretty much all other sports have judgment involved, one way or the other, if not even more draconian than skating?

  13. #88
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,178
    Thank you Wallylutz for your informative and on-topic posts on this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallylutz
    So why is that figure skating alone getting so much criticism as a judged sport even though pretty much all other sports have judgment involved, one way or the other, if not even more draconian than skating?
    I wouldn't say figure skating alone. In the case where one person appears to win, then ends up losing because of an after-the-fact review by the officials -- emotionally that just takes the wind out of the whole competition and leaves the audience saying, "well, phooey, why do I watch such a stupid sport."

    That can happen in any sport, and the spectator does indeed go home grumpy and unsatisfied.

    On the other hand, historically figure skating really was a "judged sport." In other sports the referees had, in principle, no role to play except to ensure that the rules were followed. Like the tech specialists, in principle, in the IJS.

    What makes figure skating unique is that the judges also like a performance better if the skater points her toes, turns out her knees, and achieves a lilt of the body that matches the tempo of the music. This involves true "judgment" on the part of the judges, not just looking at slo-motion replays, rule book in hand.

    The ISU's decision to make figure skating "more like other sports" -- well, be careful what you ask for, you might get it. (That's what I think anyway )

  14. #89
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    69
    So why is that figure skating alone getting so much criticism as a judged sport even though pretty much all other sports have judgment involved, one way or the other, if not even more draconian than skating?
    I think it is because the figure skating is much more complicated than other sports. Everybody knows how to win in soccer or boxing. But not everybody knows how to win in figure skating. It's not all about the jumps and it is not all about the artistry. It's both. Not only that, every jump is different. The level of execution is important, too. And everything is done so fast. However, through forums like this, I think more people will be educated. Well, if they are willing to learn.

  15. #90
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    3,825
    I think it is because the figure skating is much more complicated than other sports.
    Very true.

    But not everybody knows how to win in figure skating. It's not all about the jumps and it is not all about the artistry. It's both.
    And before either jumps or artistry, it's about the curve and flow of edges on the ice. That's what allows both skating jumps and skating artistry. Without it, there's no skating.

    But for people who don't skate or spend time watching skating live and up close, the actual skating is a lot harder to perceive when watching on TV than the jumps or the body movements above the blade.

    The sport of skating is always going to prioritize rewarding the best skating. When that happens to coincide with the best jumping and/or artistry, everyone will recognize the same winners. When the best skater has less jump content or less artistry than someone else, the judges and the casual fans might disagree about who skated best.

    Depending on the mix of skills, the judges might disagree with each other.

    It's possible for there to be more than one "right" answer. But that particular panel of judges (and, now, technical specialists) rating the performances with the current rules and scoring algorithms will arrive at one of those possible correct rankings, and that will be the official result for that event.

    Not only that, every jump is different. The level of execution is important, too. And everything is done so fast. However, through forums like this, I think more people will be educated. Well, if they are willing to learn.
    Yup.

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •