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Thread: Joannie Rochette Rivalry For 2008-2010?

  1. #1
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    Joannie Rochette Rivalry For 2008-2010?

    So much stuff for Mao/Yuna. Let's talk about Joannie and her rival in the past 2 seasons.
    I have to admit that Mao and Joannie were so close to each other face to face.

    They have met five times face to face:

    Medal count and standing:

    2008-09 World Championship/ Joannie (silver) / Mao (4th place)
    2008-09 Four Continent/ Joanne (silver)/ Mao (bronze)
    2008-09 Grand Prix Final/ Joannie (4th place)/ Mao (gold)
    2008-09 Trophee Eric Bombard/ Joannie (gold)/ Mao (silver)
    2010 Vancouver Olympic/ Joanni bronze)/ Mao (silver)

    Joannie wins 3 vs. Mao 2
    Joannie/Mao share same medals: 1 gold, 2 sivler, 1 bronze, 4th place (exactly same for both!)

    Now in terms of scores and average scores:

    2008-09 World Championship/ Joannie (191.29)/ Mao (188.09)
    2008-09 Four Continent/ Joannie (183.91)/ Mao(176.52)
    2008-09 Grand Prix Final/ Joannie(166.36)/ Mao(188.55)
    2008-09 Trophee Eric Bombard/ Joannie(180.73)/ Mao(167.59)
    2010 Vancouver Olympic/ Joannie(202.64)/ Mao(205.50)

    Five Events Average Scores for Joannie (184.99) and Mao (185.25).
    There is Only 0.26 differences between these two. Isn't it the Best Rivalry between 2008-2010?
    Your thoughts?
    Last edited by skateflatt; 04-15-2010 at 12:16 AM.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    nice stats. Although these two are always battling it out for the podium their realtionship does not have the ingredients of a rivalry.
    They do not share coaches, countries. They skate on opposite sides of the world.
    They do not enter competitions with the plan of beating the other. Mao tries to beat Yu-na, Joannie tries to get onto the podium by beating Miki, Laura, the Americans etc. Mao is out to win, Joannie is out to skate well and with heart.
    Neither have said anything about the other, catty or otherwise. They seems to pretty much ignore each other, so you can't really build a rivalry around that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    nice stats. Although these two are always battling it out for the podium their realtionship does not have the ingredients of a rivalry.
    They do not share coaches, countries. They skate on opposite sides of the world.
    They do not enter competitions with the plan of beating the other. Mao tries to beat Yu-na, Joannie tries to get onto the podium by beating Miki, Laura, the Americans etc. Mao is out to win, Joannie is out to skate well and with heart.
    Neither have said anything about the other, catty or otherwise. They seems to pretty much ignore each other, so you can't really build a rivalry around that.
    Except Joannie Rochette seems to defeat Mao Asada quite often however, though little can be said about the 2009-2010 season since they only met once, twice if you count Japan Open, then their record would have been tied, 1 victory for each. In my opinion, I thought Rochette outskated Asada in Vancouver but I suppose many fans would disagree since most people seem to count only the Triples and nothing else. By the same token, my support for Laura Lepisto's Bronze medal at world is also equally if not even more controversial though I am very comfortable with both decisions.

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    How in the earth can they have only 0.25 points differences in their 5 meetings???? How often can we see that???? If this diffence is just for only one game, then yes!
    Both are very touching ladies in figure skating. Amazing.
    Isn't 0.25 differences in five meetings a world/guiness record???? How about their exact same standings???? Jeez ~
    Last edited by Goldenskater; 04-15-2010 at 03:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Except Joannie Rochette seems to defeat Mao Asada quite often however, though little can be said about the 2009-2010 season since they only met once, twice if you count Japan Open, then their record would have been tied, 1 victory for each. In my opinion, I thought Rochette outskated Asada in Vancouver but I suppose many fans would disagree since most people seem to count only the Triples and nothing else. By the same token, my support for Laura Lepisto's Bronze medal at world is also equally if not even more controversial though I am very comfortable with both decisions.
    Wally, did they competed at Japan Open this season?

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    Here is Joannie's winning LP from Japan Open:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzxIv0iQhWA


    And Laura's LP which won her Silver:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kiNSEMTc6Y


    Mao placed third .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    nice stats. Although these two are always battling it out for the podium their realtionship does not have the ingredients of a rivalry.
    They do not share coaches, countries. They skate on opposite sides of the world.
    They do not enter competitions with the plan of beating the other. Mao tries to beat Yu-na, Joannie tries to get onto the podium by beating Miki, Laura, the Americans etc. Mao is out to win, Joannie is out to skate well and with heart. Neither have said anything about the other, catty or otherwise. They seems to pretty much ignore each other, so you can't really build a rivalry around that.
    Good Point.

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    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateflatt View Post
    So much stuff for Mao/Yuna. Let's talk about Joannie and her rival in the past 2 seasons.
    I have to admit that Mao and Joannie were so close to each other face to face.

    They have met five times face to face:

    Medal count and standing:

    2008-09 World Championship/ Joannie (silver) / Mao (4th place)
    2008-09 Four Continent/ Joanne (silver)/ Mao (bronze)
    2008-09 Grand Prix Final/ Joannie (4th place)/ Mao (gold)
    2008-09 Trophee Eric Bombard/ Joannie (gold)/ Mao (silver)
    2010 Vancouver Olympic/ Joanni bronze)/ Mao (silver)

    Joannie wins 3 vs. Mao 2
    Joannie/Mao share same medals: 1 gold, 2 sivler, 1 bronze, 4th place (exactly same for both!)

    Now in terms of scores and average scores:

    2008-09 World Championship/ Joannie (191.29)/ Mao (188.09)
    2008-09 Four Continent/ Joannie (183.91)/ Mao(176.52)
    2008-09 Grand Prix Final/ Joannie(166.36)/ Mao(188.55)
    2008-09 Trophee Eric Bombard/ Joannie(180.73)/ Mao(167.59)
    2010 Vancouver Olympic/ Joannie(202.64)/ Mao(205.50)

    Five Events Average Scores for Joannie (184.99) and Mao (185.25).
    There is Only 0.26 differences between these two. Isn't it the Best Rivalry between 2008-2010?
    Your thoughts?
    I recall she's being asked about her rivals. Then she said that her strength is her full set of triples, which implied that some other skaters (such as Mao and Yuna) didn't have them without specifically saying it aloud. She put it in an elegant manner so that it's not like a criticism. But I think that Joannie and Mao are just one of competitors to each other. Miki should join the list. Next season Mirai joins that, too. But I think that if Mao chooses right music and has right jump layout, she still has the edge over the other ladies except for Yuna. Joannie not having 3-3 does not help her. Actually, Mirai can be a lot closer to Mao than Joannie as she's doing 3lz-3t and has fab spirals and spins. Now Joannie is a better skater because of her maturity. But Mirai will increase PCS next season with the reputation that she earned at Oly (perhaps unforgettable to most judges) and right choice of programs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenskater View Post
    Wally, did they competed at Japan Open this season?
    Yes, please see janetfan's post #6.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoPC2018 View Post
    Good Point.
    On that, I have to disagree. Joannie, like most of her top competitiors, is a very competitive athlete. Make no mistake, she wants to win. When her mother suddenly died in Vancouver, she credited her ability to go to the official pratice that same day when she learned of her mother's death thanks to seeing her competitors such as Yu-Na and Mao doing all those "big tricks" on the ice. She said that when she saw those Asian girls doing that, she wants to do well as well. It ignited the competitive fire in her and kept her going.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I recall she's being asked about her rivals. Then she said that her strength is her full set of triples, which implied that some other skaters (such as Mao and Yuna) didn't have them without specifically saying it aloud. She put it in an elegant manner so that it's not like a criticism.
    Also, she doesn't get UR and edge calls or say have her spins or jumps invalidated. Yu-Na Kim has trouble with UR, edge calls and at least one spin invalidated at every world championship. Hence, her more or less flawless performance looks so stunning in comparison. Asada has serious problem with UR on her Triple Axels, among others and no edge call but instead gave up on the Lutz and Salchow, which is even worse. That's why Joannie is a constant threat and often ended up between Kim and Asada.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    But I think that Joannie and Mao are just one of competitors to each other. Miki should join the list. Next season Mirai joins that, too. But I think that if Mao chooses right music and has right jump layout, she still has the edge over the other ladies except for Yuna. Joannie not having 3-3 does not help her. Actually, Mirai can be a lot closer to Mao than Joannie as she's doing 3lz-3t and has fab spirals and spins. Now Joannie is a better skater because of her maturity. But Mirai will increase PCS next season with the reputation that she earned at Oly (perhaps unforgettable to most judges) and right choice of programs.
    - I don't think Ando is particularly competitive at this point, she may be a former World Champion but that is so far away that it means very little in the eyes of the judges. She struggles to compete with even Laura Lepisto at this point.

    - The "If" about what Asada can do remain "If" until I see it. Of course what does right jump layout mean when the said skater doesn't do a Lutz or Salchow? Regardless of music, from a choreography standpoint, the two Triple Axels that preoccupied the first half of her skate is difficult to integrate without causing disruptions.

    - Would a clean Asada beat everyone else except Kim? Difficult to say. Based on this year's program, my answer is no. Next year, I have no idea since I haven't seen it yet so I won't speculate.

    3-3 or no 3-3? First of all, Mirai does not have a 3Lz+3T. One UR attempt hardly equals a success. Besides, Joannie actually has quite consistent 3Lz+3T in practice and wants to try it competition but her coach wouldn't let her do it. If the difference is merely between the 3T and 2T in the SP, that's only 2.7 points of difference in the base value, hardly an overwhelming advantage in the same way that Joubert can have 4T+3T combo in the SP but still loses to Chan and Takahashi. In the LP, 3-3 matters only to the point that you will save enough jumping passes to squeeze 7 Triples + at least two Double Axels in your program's seven jumping passes because 3-3 does not carry additional risk bonus under IJS. Aside from Joannie, I am not aware of any top ladies currently doing 7 Triples in their LP. Her way of compensating, aside from her full set of Triples, was to do a Triple-Triple sequence. The strategic effect is the same to a Triple-Triple combination because it allows her to complete two Triples in one jumping pass. Of course, she also get 20% less points than usual but that's the trade off. Nonetheless, this allows her to do 7 Triples + 2 Double Axels, which put her at a net advantage against most other girls.

    Spiral sequence is not all about how flexible the skater appears to be. Mirai has some issues on that particular element, for instance, that element got downgraded to a Level 2 at the Olympic Games and Level 3 at Worlds. While her Layback Spin is spectacular and a great asset, the rest of her spins do not stand out in particular. I kept hammering hard on anyone who tried to push Mirai to the top before she is ready precisely because these completely unrealistic expectations are suffocating this young 16 year old. Seriously, that's why she kept having these melt down during the big moments because she is being pressured unfairly. l think it would be helpful to take a step back, recognize her potential without floating her up to the moon before she is ready.

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    Has Joannie Rochette won anything important? Nope.
    She wasn't even a serious competitor until last year and that with a huge push from Skate Canada.

    Miki boring and labored LP was about 8 points more than Laura. Her SP was a disaster and that's how Laura got the bronze. Joannie could do worse at Worlds had she entered. She's very inconsistent, case in point: her GPF record. She got one world medal in the past 8 years. Somehow that made her Mao Asada's rival? Mao triple axels Asada? LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I don't think Ando is particularly competitive at this point, she may be a former World Champion but that is so far away that it means very little in the eyes of the judges. She struggles to compete with even Laura Lepisto at this point.
    I strongly disagree. Ando won both her GP events this season and won silver at the GPF. Joannie won 3rd and 1st at her GP events but the 1st was only because of hometown bonus and a splatfest event. She came in 5th at the GPF and would have lost the event behind Leonova if it weren't for her PCS. I know Miki was 5th in Vancouver and 4th at Worlds, but that's hardly something to poo-poo. She consistently makes the GPF and places well. Joannie is very inconsistent and while at her best she may be better than Ando, I think saying Ando is not competitive is unfair. The NBC commentators said she or Mao would be most likely to overtake Yuna at the Olympics should Yuna make mistakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    I strongly disagree. Ando won both her GP events this season and won silver at the GPF. Joannie won 3rd and 1st at her GP events but the 1st was only because of hometown bonus and a splatfest event. She came in 5th at the GPF and would have lost the event behind Leonova if it weren't for her PCS. I know Miki was 5th in Vancouver and 4th at Worlds, but that's hardly something to poo-poo. She consistently makes the GPF and places well. Joannie is very inconsistent and while at her best she may be better than Ando, I think saying Ando is not competitive is unfair. The NBC commentators said she or Mao would be most likely to overtake Yuna at the Olympics should Yuna make mistakes.
    Winning GP events doesn't mean anything. The way I assess skaters, I evaluate their potential irrespective of the results. That's why I continued to consider Mao Asada to be a contender despite her dismal GP results or not consider Johnny Weir to be a contender despite his medals during the GP series. Ando vs. Rochette, of the 6~7 head to head in the last two seasons, Rochette defeated Ando in every single instance except GPF 2009. I think that's pretty compelling on its own. Any skater can have a bad day. As for the "very incosistent" comment, that's subject to interpretation.

    P.S I seem to have trouble typing this morning, sorry
    Last edited by wallylutz; 04-15-2010 at 01:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    I strongly disagree. Ando won both her GP events this season and won silver at the GPF. Joannie won 3rd and 1st at her GP events but the 1st was only because of hometown bonus and a splatfest event. .
    I agree with wally on this one. Unless Ando gets her 3x3 back she is at best a slightly above average skater. She did win her GP events this season but against what type of competition?

    At the GPF Akiko skated cirlces around Miki and only reputation got Miki the Silver.

    Think of it this way - in an Olympic year Miki failed to make the podium at Japanese Natls, the Olympics and then Worlds. Is that an elite skater?

    It is possible for her to rebound, but if she doesn't continue as one of the top 2-3 jumpers in the Ladies field she won't see many podiums at major events.

    Was wondering - did Miki have injury problems this season? That could have slowed her down........

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