Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 60

Thread: Joannie Rochette Rivalry For 2008-2010?

  1. #31
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Storybrooke, Maine
    Posts
    3,674
    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Using my logic, Tara Lipinski should stilll have been considered a rival of Michelle Kwan.

    Tara and Michelle both competed on the senior circuit from 1995-1998, so it would be reasonable to only count Michelle's titles in the years that they were actually competing against each other (just as I had only compared Joannie and Mao starting from the 2006-2007 season). If we were to count number of ISU championships won during that timespan, Tara had 1 Olympic title, 1 world title and 1 Champion Series Final title to Michelle's 2 world titles and 1 Champion Series Final title (though Michelle's 1998 world title was won during Tara's absence). Those are very comparable records, especially given that Tara was virtually a nobody during the 95-96 season. True, Tara only really dominated Michelle for the 96-97 season, but Tara did also manage to win the biggest title of the 97-98 season in the midst of Michelle's dominance and moreover, Tara was only on the full senior competition circuit for two seasons.
    Tara actually won the Champion Series Final twice, once she beat MK in the 1997 season and the second she beat out Tanja Szweczenko in the 1998 season (MK had to sit out the event due to her toe injury). MK won 2 National titles defeating Tara; Tara defeated MK once at Nationals. MK did far better on the GP circuit than Tara. A bit of skating trivia: Lipinski NEVER won a single Grand Prix event; only the Final twice. MK, on the other hand, won all 4 of her GP events when she and Tara competed together from 1996-1997 and 1997-1998.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 04-15-2010 at 11:02 PM.

  2. #32
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Using my logic, Tara Lipinski should stilll have been considered a rival of Michelle Kwan.

    Tara and Michelle both competed on the senior circuit from 1995-1998, so it would be reasonable to only count Michelle's titles in the years that they were actually competing against each other (just as I had only compared Joannie and Mao starting from the 2006-2007 season). If we were to count number of ISU championships won during that timespan, Tara had 1 Olympic title, 1 world title and 1 Champion Series Final title to Michelle's 2 world titles and 1 Champion Series Final title (though Michelle's 1998 world title was won during Tara's absence). Those are very comparable records, especially given that Tara was virtually a nobody during the 95-96 season. True, Tara only really dominated Michelle for the 96-97 season, but Tara did also manage to win the biggest title of the 97-98 season in the midst of Michelle's dominance and moreover, Tara was only on the full senior competition circuit for two seasons.
    That's pretty selective logic. You are omitting that Tara actually competed at the national level against Michelle prior to her winning the 97 U.S. National and not counting that Michelle completely dominated Tara for years prior to that surprise win in 97. Using your logic, since Tara only started to beat Michelle Kwan in 1997 and did not beat her in every single competition since either, including losing the 97 Skate America and 98 U.S. Nationals, which is at a fairly similar rate compared to the Asada/Rochette win/lose ratio since 2008 until 2010. I think your argument is suspect because it seems to me it is based on fairly selective data mining.

  3. #33
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,198
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    That's pretty selective logic. You are omitting that Tara actually competed at the national level against Michelle prior to her winning the 97 U.S. National and not counting that Michelle completely dominated Tara for years prior to that surprise win in 97. Using your logic, since Tara only started to beat Michelle Kwan in 1997 and did not beat her in every single competition since either, including losing the 97 Skate America and 98 U.S. Nationals, which is at a fairly similar rate compared to the Asada/Rochette win/lose ratio since 2008 until 2010. I think your argument is suspect because it seems to me it is based on fairly selective data mining.
    No, I think you completely missed my point.

    In post #25, the one you questioned, the original point of my post was although Joannie had consistently beat out Mao during the 2008-2009 season, I would hesitate calling it a rivalry as Mao's competitive record regarding ISU championships far outstrips Joannie's within the overall trajectory of their careers. (6-0).

    This, however, is not the case with Tara and Michelle. Though Michelle dominated Tara for most of the 95-96 (though I am loath to even include the 95-96 season as Tara wasn't even fully on the senior circuit at that point) and 97-98 seasons, I am much less hesistant calling the Tara-Michelle matchup a rivalry as their competitive records regarding ISU championships are much more comparable within the years in which they were competing at the same time.

    As for selective data mining, wouldn't that be the case if one ignores the years in which Mao was beating Joannie and only focused on their competitive results when Joannie started her rise during the 08-09 season?
    Last edited by evangeline; 04-16-2010 at 12:17 AM.

  4. #34
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    No, I think you completely missed my point.

    In post #25, the one you questioned, the original point of my post was although Joannie had consistently beat out Mao during the 2008-2009 season, I would hesitate calling it a rivalry as Mao's competitive record regarding ISU championships far outstrips Joannie's within the overall trajectory of their careers. (6-0).

    This, however, is not the case with Tara and Michelle. Though Michelle dominated Tara for most of the 95-96 (though I am loath to even include the 95-96 season as Tara wasn't even fully on the senior circuit at that point) and 97-98 seasons, I am much less hesistant calling the Tara-Michelle matchup a rivalry as their competitive records regarding ISU championships are much more comparable.
    It is your arbitrary use of the stats that I question. For instance the 6-0 figure you used, you count the number of times Asada won ISU Championships, which included among others, this year's win at the 4CC when neither Rochette or Kim was even there. Rochette may not have won a single ISU Championship, but the problem with the usage of your number is that Asada actually lost some pretty important match ups in those ISU Championships against Rochette where there happens to be another girl by the name of Yu-Na Kim, which is why Rochette didn't win the title but beat Asada. One can also make an argument that since Asada failed to qualify for the GPF 2009, whereas Rochette did, the fact that Asada wasn't even there is a defeat on its own. So when you add things up: 2008 TEB, 2009 4CC, 2009 Worlds, 2009 Japan Open, 2009 GPF, and finished with a very close call at the 2010 Vancouver Olympics - Rochette has a clear plurality of wins over Asada. There is only Yu-Na Kim who can claim similar honor against Asada in the past two seasons. Yet, if you insist that Rochette should be compared to Ando and Lespito, then why aren't these women beating Asada at a similar frequency as Rochette? Another aspect that I am having difficulty with your argument is that there is always a recency component in the analysis of figure skating results. The fact that Fumie Suguri was a former World Silver Medalist, for instance, hardly means anything today. Therefore, if you want to quote results as far back as 2007, then by definition, the 2007 World Champion should be a hot item today but she clearly isn't. Therefore, my thinking is your analysis is flawed due to data mining and the fact you didn't weight the results based on recency, making your comparison less meaningful.

  5. #35
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    In the same vein, both Kostner and Lepisto have actually won ISU Championships compared to Rochette, who has zero, thanks to European Championship being significantly weaker compared to 4CC in ladies. Yet, I doubt anyone would use such stats to argue that Kostner and Lepisto are superior by the virtue of the number of ISU Championships they won. Hence, stats on their own are pretty meaningless unless they also made sense and logical argument or inferences can be made from them.

  6. #36
    Thank God for Stephane Lambiel and Matt Savoie! shine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,515
    Just wanted to share this with everyone - Joannie's performance to "My Immortal"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWycUL02yNM

  7. #37
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Yes, head-to-head does say a lot indeed. Mao and Joannie have met head-to-head nine times this Olympic quad in ISU competition.

    Mao has topped Joannie 6 times out of 9 (2010 Olympics, 2007 and 2008 Worlds, 2008 4CC, 2008 GPF, 2007 Skate Canada) while Joannie has beat Mao 3 times all in the same season (2009 Worlds, 2009 4CC, 2008 TEB). If Joannie continues beating Mao, I'll be more convinced that they have a real rivalry.

    Also, isn't it funny how statistics produce very different results when you adjust the size of the sample?
    Sometimes is not bad to read the title.
    Last edited by skateflatt; 04-16-2010 at 03:35 AM.

  8. #38
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Just wanted to share this with everyone - Joannie's performance to "My Immortal"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWycUL02yNM
    Thanks shine, OMG so touching~

  9. #39
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Storybrooke, Maine
    Posts
    3,674
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    In the same vein, both Kostner and Lepisto have actually won ISU Championships compared to Rochette, who has zero, thanks to European Championship being significantly weaker compared to 4CC in ladies. Yet, I doubt anyone would use such stats to argue that Kostner and Lepisto are superior by the virtue of the number of ISU Championships they won. Hence, stats on their own are pretty meaningless unless they also made sense and logical argument or inferences can be made from them.
    Exactly! If Caro and Laura had had to face Yu-Na and Mao at Euros to win their titles the way Joannie and Miki have had to face them at 4CC, then Kostner and Lepisto most likely would not have those ISU titles, unless Kim and Asada bombed big time.

  10. #40
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    As for selective data mining, wouldn't that be the case if one ignores the years in which Mao was beating Joannie and only focused on their competitive results when Joannie started her rise during the 08-09 season?
    Not really.

    In the 06-07 and 07-08 seasons, no one would argue that Asada and Rochette were rivals in any sense of the word other than the literal (aka, two competitors at the same events). Asada was in another league, Rochette was still struggling with consistency issues (she is now, admittedly). It's not really a question.

    The question, as posed by the initial poster, has Rochette BECOME a rival for Asada? In the two seasons, she's beaten her more times than not (TEB 2008, 4CC 2009, Worlds 2009, Japan Open 2009 vs GPF 2008, WTT 2009, Olympics 2010), and their scores are often very close to each others. Now, whether you believe this is because Asada's skills have deteriorated (no 3-3 combination, too much focus on 3A), Rochette's have improved (consistency, jumps, PCS), both or neither is up in the air, of course.

    That said, I sorta feel that a rivalry needs an off the ice component for it to be a memorable one: Plushenko-Yagudin, Asada-Kim, etc. This certainly doesn't.

  11. #41
    Mashimaro on Ice
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,419
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Not really.

    In the 06-07 and 07-08 seasons, no one would argue that Asada and Rochette were rivals in any sense of the word other than the literal (aka, two competitors at the same events). Asada was in another league, Rochette was still struggling with consistency issues (she is now, admittedly). It's not really a question.

    The question, as posed by the initial poster, has Rochette BECOME a rival for Asada? In the two seasons, she's beaten her more times than not (TEB 2008, 4CC 2009, Worlds 2009, Japan Open 2009 vs GPF 2008, WTT 2009, Olympics 2010), and their scores are often very close to each others. Now, whether you believe this is because Asada's skills have deteriorated (no 3-3 combination, too much focus on 3A), Rochette's have improved (consistency, jumps, PCS), both or neither is up in the air, of course.

    That said, I sorta feel that a rivalry needs an off the ice component for it to be a memorable one: Plushenko-Yagudin, Asada-Kim, etc. This certainly doesn't.
    This I agree. I think most of their fans are comfortable enough for them to skate in the same shows, and also both skaters have been quite friendly to each other. In one article, Joannie even said that she thinks Mao is the most graceful skater now. There's a lack of tension that the other two rivalries have.

  12. #42
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    6,889
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    That said, I sorta feel that a rivalry needs an off the ice component for it to be a memorable one: Plushenko-Yagudin, Asada-Kim, etc. This certainly doesn't.
    Many feel the same way - but for me it is almost the opposite.
    The "Battle of The Brians" has become legendary - and yet the two skaters were not enemies, and showed each other alot of respect on and off the ice.

    The class the "Brians' showed made their rivalry better for me. The Yags-Plush rivalry felt less like a sporting rivalry and more like I was watching a couple of little boys fighting over the last piece of candy. I admire more mature behavior from my champions.

    I think despite the pressure Yuna and Mao feel from their fans and press they handle themselves extremely well. Midori and Kristi is another example of rivals who wanted the Gold medal badly, had immense pressure to win and yet these too always showed such dignity and class.

    Maybe I am in a minority here - but for me sportsmanship, grace under pressure, how one handles defeat - these are the qualities I admire. Great sporting rivalries don't have to be about jerky behavior.

    The champions I admire most show great quality on and off the ice.
    I immediately think of Michelle and Joannie.

  13. #43
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Watching the sunset
    Posts
    2,793
    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    This I agree. I think most of their fans are comfortable enough for them to skate in the same shows, and also both skaters have been quite friendly to each other. In one article, Joannie even said that she thinks Mao is the most graceful skater now. There's a lack of tension that the other two rivalries have.
    Also Joannie is five years older than Mao and they are at different stages of their career.

  14. #44
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Many feel the same way - but for me it is almost the opposite.
    The "Battle of The Brians" has become legendary - and yet the two skaters were not enemies, and showed each other alot of respect on and off the ice.

    The class the "Brians' showed made their rivalry better for me. The Yags-Plush rivalry felt less like a sporting rivalry and more like I was watching a couple of little boys fighting over the last piece of candy. I admire more mature behavior from my champions.

    I think despite the pressure Yuna and Mao feel from their fans and press they handle themselves extremely well. Midori and Kristi is another example of rivals who wanted the Gold medal badly, had immense pressure to win and yet these too always showed such dignity and class.

    Maybe I am in a minority here - but for me sportsmanship, grace under pressure, how one handles defeat - these are the qualities I admire. Great sporting rivalries don't have to be about jerky behavior.

    The champions I admire most show great quality on and off the ice.
    I immediately think of Michelle and Joannie.
    I agree, but I think the class they showed off the ice (along with their same first names) contributes to the battle. It's not about off-ice hatred or anger. Asada and Kim have composed themselves with nothing less than dignity.

    Another example of a rivalry would be Joubert and Chan. Even ignoring the words thrown, their rivalry is about different types of skating styles along with general competition. I'd call that a rivalry because they typify two different schools/directions.

  15. #45
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Texas, United States
    Posts
    4,957
    I think an interesting rivalry between Chan, Brezina, and Rippon will develop in the years leading up to Sochi. All extremely talented but with his own unique style .

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •