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Thread: Should the ISU have separate scoring systems for men and women?

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Should the ISU have separate scoring systems for men and women?

    Is there any reason why there could not be different rules for men’s skating than for women’s? In gymnastics, for instance, women do not do the high bar or rings. These strength apparatuses are just more appropriate to men’s gymnastics than to women’s.

    Here are two suggestions, neither of them new, about possible rules changes that might be appropriate for ladies singles.

    1. Raise the base value for triple Axels.

    Pro: For ladies, a triple Axel is a truly prodigious feat. This should be acknowledged, encouraged and rewarded by the CoP.

    Con: The triple Axel is already 2.2 points higher than the next lower-valued jump, the triple Lutz. We do not want one single element, however marvelous, to dominate the scoring.

    Comparison to men: For men, a triple Axel is not such a big deal – many juniors have a 3A. If we raise the base value of a 3A to, say, 9.0 points, then consistency would require that we raise the value of a quad toe to 12 points or more.

    But then, in order to preserve the idea of a “balanced program,” we would have to raise the values of spins and footwork, and also give more weight to program components. Competitively, nothing would change except that everyone would get a few extra points across the board.

    No change necessary for men.

    2. Combine the flip and the Lutz into a new jump called the “left foot take-off toe-pick assisted” jump.

    The LFTOTPA (or RFTOTPA for clockwise jumpers ) could go off either the inside edge or the outside edge, skater’s preference. A clear, deep outside edge is a feature for +1 GOE.

    Pro: This would eliminate all these judgment calls about “e” and “!” and whether judges must follow the tech specialist's call or score by their own real-time eyes, etc. It would also prevent (via the Zayak rules) skaters from omitting the edge jumps (loop and Salchow).

    Con: This is a cop-out. If you can’t do a proper Lutz and a proper flip, go home and work on them until you can.

    Comparison with men: Most men have a true flip and a true Lutz. No change necessary.

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    Mashimaro on Ice
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    For the first one I agree because compared to men, 3A is very difficult for a woman. That's why very few have done it. I also think they should increase the base value for difficult 3-3 combos, because not that many women try the harder 3-3's either. The second suggestion make me laugh a bit. I guess there is a gender difference for flutzes because many ladies have flutzes currently and in the past. However, I am not sure a new jump should be made to account for that. Perhaps, they can be less harsh on edge violations. I think either a deduction for edge violation or neg GOE, not both.

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    There are tons of men who lip. And I really disagree with the concept of making the 3lutz and the 3flip into one jump. There are plenty of women who can do both jumps correctly.

    I do think though that maybe the jump values should be changed for women altogether, so we see no more Lepistos on the medal stand. And I don't see the big deal for the ! or E rules anyways. For me it was about darn time they did something about it, and I like what they are doing.

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    I don't think the base values for the triple axels should be raised. Unless we get a female skater that both consistently lands the triple axel AND gets so high GOE's on them that the other ladies have to start either incorporating the jump or doing harder jumps, I don't think that the value should be raised. Yeah, it might serve as an incentive; but then again, I'd rather see, say, a clean triple lutz or flip than a barely there axel. Or just a plain splat-fest.

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    1. possible. Not only triple axels, quads also. Maybe 0.5 point increase each? But then, they should be more strict on the rotation.

    2. just silly.

    I strongly encourage ISU to give some incentive to those who land the complete set of triple jumps, like Joannie in the ladies. Maybe Mirai too, if she can get her edge corrected.
    Also, I desperately hope they do something with the technical panel deciding everything from leveling spins to rewarding jumps. It's just too subjective. Maybe two of them can do the leveling spins and steps, but when it comes to downgrading a jump, I think all three of them should agree before doing so. I just want them to be consistent so there won't be any doubts and complaints.
    Last edited by Basics; 04-17-2010 at 08:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith11 View Post
    I don't think the base values for the triple axels should be raised. Unless we get a female skater that both consistently lands the triple axel AND gets so high GOE's on them that the other ladies have to start either incorporating the jump or doing harder jumps, I don't think that the value should be raised. Yeah, it might serve as an incentive; but then again, I'd rather see, say, a clean triple lutz or flip than a barely there axel. Or just a plain splat-fest.
    I agree. Plus, right now Mao is the only skater who actually does the 3A. The Japanese federation will probably not be able to push through any rule change without the support of the European federation and I doubt they would agree to the change since none of their skaters will benefit.
    Last edited by Figure88; 04-17-2010 at 05:31 PM.

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    I have no opinion whether a 3a should have more base point. I do disagree with the rather narrow view of don't do 3a, becuase of "barely there" 3a or splash fest. I don't think skaters are stupid and put a jump that they can't master in a competitive program. I have seen Arakawa landed perfect 3a in practice without splashing, but she was consistent enough to put it in her programs. So far the only ladies who have put 3a in their program consistently are Ito, ? Harding and Mao, none of them have "barfely there 3a". So far none of them splashed, they actually land the jump on their feet. Even with downgrade Mao's 3a does not look "barely there".

    FS is a sport someone has to take the risk to advance the sports. I am quoting and hopefully am not misquoting Kwanford wife, it is better for skaters to have a full set of triple jumps. In 2 consecutive olys the lady OGM were loopless. Hope the future lady OGM will have a full set of triple jumps including the 3a.
    Last edited by rtureck; 04-17-2010 at 05:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    I have no opinion whether a 3a should have more base point. I do disagree with the rather narrow view of don't do 3a, becuase of "barely there" 3a or splash fest. I don't think skaters are stupid and put a jump that they can't master in a competitive program. I have seen Arakawa landed perfect 3a in practice without splashing, but she was consistent enough to put it in her programs. So far the only ladies who have put 3a in their program consistently are Ito, ? Harding and Mao, none of them have "barfely there 3a". So far none of them splashed, they actually land the jump on their feet. Even with downgrade Mao's 3a does not look "barely there".

    FS is a sport someone has to take the risk to advance the sports. I am quoting and hopefully am not misquoting Kwanford wife, it is better for skaters to have a full set of triple jumps. In 2 consecutive olys the lady OGM were loopless. Hope the future lady OGM will have a full set of triple jumps including the 3a.
    depends on how you look at it. sometimes, they definitely look short. This is why I want them to have more concrete system with downgrading. clear rules on pre, under-rotations and consistent calls! Because it means so much to the skaters.
    Last edited by Basics; 04-17-2010 at 05:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoPC2018 View Post
    depends on how you look at it. sometimes, they defenately look short. This is why I want them to have more concrete system with downgrading. clear rules on pre, under-rotations and consistent calls! Because it means so much to the skaters.
    Well if there are no full rotations, the tech guys call for doswngrade, and they should. I don't recall Mao falling on the jumps too many times, she manages to stay on her foot. Anyway if she is downgraded it is her job to fix it period. Mao's downgrade should not hinder other skaters to try their best to advance the sports. Mao's downgrade should definitely be an incentive for her to do better also. And I hope Arakawa and YuNa being loopless won't encourage future skaters to take the route of not getting a full set of triples

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    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    I have no opinion whether a 3a should have more base point. I do disagree with the rather narrow view of don't do 3a, becuase of "barely there" 3a or splash fest. I don't think skaters are stupid and put a jump that they can't master in a competitive program. I have seen Arakawa landed perfect 3a in practice without splashing, but she was consistent enough to put it in her programs. So far the only ladies who have put 3a in their program consistently are Ito, ? Harding and Mao, none of them have "barfely there 3a". So far none of them splashed, they actually land the jump on their feet. Even with downgrade Mao's 3a does not look "barely there".

    FS is a sport someone has to take the risk to advance the sports. I am quoting and hopefully am not misquoting Kwanford wife, it is better for skaters to have a full set of triple jumps. In 2 consecutive olys the lady OGM were loopless. Hope the future lady OGM will have a full set of triple jumps including the 3a.
    Uh..then why is Mao receiving such low GOE's, not mention a significant number of 3A receive DG's. I don't know the statistics, but maybe half of 3A were subject to DG's by the judges.

    I hope you're not going to turn this thread into Mao v. Yuna thread. What does being "loopless" have anything to do with the topic that is being discussed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    Uh..then why is Mao receiving such low GOE's, not mention a significant number of 3A receive DG's. I don't know the statistics, but maybe half of 3A were subject to DG's by the judges.
    Receiving low GOE and DG does not necessarily mean skaters have to abandon the ideal of advancing the sport.
    I hope you're not going to turn this thread into Mao v. Yuna thread. What does being "loopless" have anything to do with the topic that is being discussed?
    I brought in Arakawa being loopless too, or are you so Yuna focus that you overlooked my mention of Arakawa. This thread is talking about scoring system and advancing the sport, so yeah, Arakwa is my #5 favorite skater, and I prefer that she has a loop at her oly program.
    Last edited by rtureck; 04-17-2010 at 06:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoPC2018 View Post
    depends on how you look at it. sometimes, they definitely look short. This is why I want them to have more concrete system with downgrading. clear rules on pre, under-rotations and consistent calls! Because it means so much to the skaters.
    I agree with more consistent UR calls. I think don't think these calls should be so dependent on tech callers. I think perhaps everyone on the judging panel should be involved in making the final decision.
    Last edited by miki88; 04-17-2010 at 06:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I agree with more consistent UR calls. I think don't think these calls should be so dependent on tech callers. I think perhaps everyone on the judging panel should be involved in making the final decision.
    I agree with more concrete system, but I still prefer tech callers making the decision instead of involving the judges.

    To an earlier post from a poster tht 3a shouldn't have higher base value unless a female skater lands it so consistently that others are encouraged to do so?? I am a bit confused. Under such a system who would want to be a pioneer to put the 3a in her program? Success in a jump takes the courage of putting that in competitive programs. So this first female skater who is willing to take the risk will be getting the current lower base value, but once she succeeds with consistency of this jump (most likely by the time she retires), then the base value of the jump is incresed for the benefits of future skaters????

    Anyway I hope skaters are advancing the sports regardless of the point values they are getting. Look at Dice, all he needed was to stand up and he would get the gold, but he was willing to take the risk of the 4f
    Last edited by rtureck; 04-17-2010 at 06:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    I have no opinion whether a 3a should have more base point. I do disagree with the rather narrow view of don't do 3a, becuase of "barely there" 3a or splash fest. I don't think skaters are stupid and put a jump that they can't master in a competitive program.
    -_- I'm not saying DON'T DO IT... if you can. The thing I worry is that if they raise the value of the triple axel even more, then the other ladies, in order to be competitive w/Mao's triple axels (and from what I've heard, she'll be bringing back the 3-3), will force themselves to either do 1). jumps they can't handle, such as the triple axel. I mean, we saw a bunch of men at the Olympics attempt the quad in the long and um, how many fell again? Splatfest may I say? These are competitors first and foremost; of course they want to win. And they will do what it takes to win, even if it means taking a risk such as a harder triple or the triple axel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith11 View Post
    -_- I'm not saying DON'T DO IT... if you can. The thing I worry is that if they raise the value of the triple axel even more, then the other ladies, in order to be competitive w/Mao's triple axels (and from what I've heard, she'll be bringing back the 3-3), will force themselves to either do 1). jumps they can't handle, such as the triple axel. I mean, we saw a bunch of men at the Olympics attempt the quad in the long and um, how many fell again? Splatfest may I say? These are competitors first and foremost; of course they want to win. And they will do what it takes to win, even if it means taking a risk such as a harder triple or the triple axel.
    Sorry, still fail to see 100% of your reason. FS is a sport, there will be injuries, skaters have to decide for themselves the price they are willing to pay. If 3a is such a risk then the reward shuld be higher, and that ties back to MM's original post should they inc the base value of 3a. Mao said she will try to bring back 3/3 does not mean she will be able to. Not sure whether she will be bringing back 3t or 3l as the second jump. She has higher success rate of not being DG with her 3f/3t. OTOH 3f/3l has higher base value, again higher risk higher reward.

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