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Thread: Should the ISU have separate scoring systems for men and women?

  1. #76
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Well, that assumes that it's as simple as bothering to learn it. Some will put in a lot of effort and not succeed. If the skater can get three full revolutions and a clean landing fairly consistently from the inside edge takeoff and never from the outside edge, they'll stick with the inside takeoff. That would be every skater who ever planned a program with triple flip and not lutz, plus those who usually got positive GOE for their flips and negative for their lutzes
    But why would someone really bother to learn both forms if they can just do one form. Most experts feel the 3lutz and the 3flip are the two most difficult jumps to master. If you make them into one jump, the coaches will pick one form of that jump, the student will learn it, and that will be it. Most will learn the 3flip and that will be the end of it. Even if that student was capable of the 3lutz. Why would the coaches and the students waste their practice time on something that will get them a negibile plus 1 GOE (and only if clean) when they can work on a harder entrance to the 3flip and get the plus 1 GOE that way? Heck, I'm against this change, but if it happened and I was a coach, I would only teach my student one entry.

    I agree with your points, although I wouldn't focus so specifically on the current crop of top ladies and prefer to look at a broader picture
    But I am thinking big picture. I'm trying to point out that it hurts those who have taken the time to fix their edge issues. But big picture is that it will be the death knoll (for the most part) for the 3lutz.
    Last edited by bekalc; 04-19-2010 at 08:10 AM.

  2. #77
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    I don't think triple jumps should have more value then they have. I just want to encourage the doing of 5/6 different triple jumps. I don't want the skaters to do all the jumps unless they have a chance to be clean. Few ladies right now do a real lutz/flip and so few would get this bonus but it might encourage the future generation. So if we make the bonus 2.5 or 3 points that will give these ladies a boost. Perhaps there could also be a bonus for ladies you can get all level 4s with positive goe though right now that's almost impossible. Though all of this won't matter if the judges won't start judging pcs's the way they are written in the rule book. A skater will get all level 4's and do all types of jumps but do little to no transitions and forget to skate to the music.

  3. #78
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    interesting question--
    under 6.0's when figures were worth more and men and women were doing about same jumps etc--no difference in scoring needed.
    however due to finally finding out men can do triple axel a bit easier and maybe quads easier even though more ur's.
    and finally finding out women tiriples are harder for them and many are ur' -maybe their should be a separate scoring system.
    and than both should use the same artistic scores and spin level scores and step sequence but different on spirals -.
    my take anyway--great question--make me think about pro's and con's and future consequence to the sport as a whole.
    does it help--maybe.

  4. #79
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    Just wondering, did changing the rules on quads with the men actually increase the number of quads seen in competition programs??

    Also, I think that instead of concentrating completely on jumps, there should also be a change in which the ISU values other aspects of skating. In ladies skating, there is a greater emphasis on more flexible, attractive poses in spins and spirals while men have different standards. Also, men tend to have stronger, more powerful step sequences. So instead of using the same scale for both, maybe it may be wiser to use separate scales for the two different fields. Any opinions?

  5. #80
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    More flexible poses yes, but more attractive, defnitely not always. I can't stand a lot of the 'flexible' poses that the women have to do to get level 4. Can't.stand.them to the point of seldom even watching the ladies.

  6. #81
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Also, as I keep on saying, eventually nobody will bother to learn both new Jump inside or New Jump outside edge. Why should your skater show case both New Jump Outside Edge and New Jump Inside edge, when doing New Jump inside edge costs them points? No they will just do new Jump Outside edge.
    Well, I do not have an answer to the objection that the Newjump rule would result in fewer Lutz attempts by ladies. Very likely it would.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly
    And the question isn't really should the ISU have separate scoring systems for men and women, but rather, should the same scoring system use different point values for some elements for men and women…

    Brian Boitano in his day had some huge clean triple lutzes with spread eagle entry and arm overhead in the air, the best of which should deserve +3 GOE in the current scoring system. Under today's rules, if all judges agreed, they'd be worth 9.0 points -- this change would cap their score at 8.5?
    That was really the kind of question that I would like to bring to the fore. True, the lady skater who can do a Lutz like Brian Boitano would get only 8.5 points for her effort – now show me that lady so I can make amends.

    In a sport like gymnastics, men and women are expected to demonstrate quite different skills.

    In golf, the only difference is slightly shorter tee placements

    What about figure skating? My favorite lady did two Lutzes and a flip in every program in her amazing amateur career. Her Lutzes were iffy, sometimes OK, sometimes wandering off a little to the wrong edge. A few ladies did (and do) a more creditable job of managing to keep a reasonable facsimile of an outside edge all the way to take-off. But I have never seen a lady do a triple Lutz like a man: that short but distinct-to-the-naked-eye deep curving edge heading out the wrong way, then that sudden explosive pop into the air like he is being shot from a cannon.

    Maybe a triple Lutz is a better element for a man, and the rules should encourage a lady to substitute, say, a Charlotte. We don’t really want to see a man trying this.

    On another thread, started by Joesitz, we discussed the fact that a camel spin is a man’s spin and a layback is a lady’s. Another example of a man’s element is a Russian slpit jump. There is just something high-spirited Cossack ruffian about it.

    (Here is the high-spirited Cossack bargirl joining in the fun. )

    But in general ladies should do their split jumps in scissors position. (Just my opinion.)
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-19-2010 at 03:55 PM.

  7. #82
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Plenty of women have true lutzes. There's nothing wrong with Yu-na, Ando, Rochette etc's lutzs. Just to name some girls now.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Plenty of women have true lutzes. There's nothing wrong with Yu-na, Ando, Rochette etc's lutzs. Just to name some girls now.
    Will you give a more extensive list later

    Iffy edges like Mira don't count and terrible "Plushy type air position" with the scratchy landings like Flatt don't count either. Plus her flip is giving her problems lately.

    Laura is hit and miss, Akiko gets edge calls, Caro has had her share of troubles, the current Russian champion doesn't even attemp a lutz,,,,,,,,,,, Alissa fell twice on Lutzs and could not defend her US title.

    The current World champion does not attempt a lutz and the current Olympc champion has had problems with the flip for a while now. The Men's Silver medalist in Vancouver did not attemp a flip either and barely landed his lutz.

    Maybe mathman is onto to something here.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That was really the kind of question that I would like to bring to the fore. True, the lady skater who can do a Lutz like Brian Boitano would get only 8.5 points for her effort – now show me that lady so I can make amends.
    I don't have examples of women doing jumps that big and also doing difficult entries and air positions.
    But even without the embellishments, at least Yuna Kim and Julia Sebestyen have gotten +2s for unadorned, even somewhat telegraphed lutzes.

    Here are some others from the old judging system who had the potential to do the same:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdC5G7CDvbI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLbk5FKWesQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwVdheQlYq0

    So then it's just a matter of getting someone who can jump that big and correctly and also add something extra to squeeze out that +3. Kim is the most likely.

    But I have never seen a lady do a triple Lutz like a man: that short but distinct-to-the-naked-eye deep curving edge heading out the wrong way, then that sudden explosive pop into the air like he is being shot from a cannon.
    See the links above.

    So are you suggesting that the distinction between the two jumps should be eliminated for women and maintained for men?

    Maybe a triple Lutz is a better element for a man, and the rules should encourage a lady to substitute, say, a Charlotte. We don’t really want to see a man trying this.
    Why not?
    Last edited by gkelly; 04-19-2010 at 05:01 PM.

  10. #85
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Will you give a more extensive list later

    Iffy edges like Mira don't count and terrible "Plushy type air position" with the scratchy landings like Flatt don't count either. Plus her flip is giving her problems lately.

    Laura is hit and miss, Akiko gets edge calls, Caro has had her share of troubles, the current Russian champion doesn't even attemp a lutz,,,,,,,,,,, Alissa fell twice on Lutzs and could not defend her US title.

    The current World champion does not attempt a lutz and the current Olympc champion has had problems with the flip for a while now. The Men's Silver medalist in Vancouver did not attemp a flip either and barely landed his lutz.

    Maybe mathman is onto to something here.
    So because people are having trouble with a jump that means we should get rid of the jump altogether, I dont' think so, It only goes to show it really is two seperate jumps. Besides Yu-na has been landing her 3flip more and more recently and if she continues I suspect it will be much more stable next year. As for Laura, she doesn't even have a 3flip.

    Kostner can do both the 3lutz and 3 flip correctly, although she sometimes doesn't attempt the lutz. Rochette also can do it correctly. And if we are going to talk about Alissa falling as a criteria for getting rid of a jump, every jump should have to go.

    The idea that a 3lutz is only for a man (and plenty of men get edge calls) is ridiculous when we have examples of not only the people I mentioned but also Julia Sebestian, Midori, Tonya, Kerrigan, Agnes Z all who have gorgeous lutzs. Arakawa had a good 3lutz too, as did Irina Slutskaya.

    Just because some coaches never bothered to teach the female skaters the 3lutz correctly, doesn't mean its a man's jump. That's just ridiculous.

    And as for the current Russian champion, Ksensia reportedly has the 3lutz, and is even doing 3lutz/3toes in practice, which they hope to add in next year. As I said earlier I suspect part of the time issue was actually trying to get the jump correct.
    Last edited by bekalc; 04-19-2010 at 05:05 PM.

  11. #86
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    That was really the kind of question that I would like to bring to the fore. True, the lady skater who can do a Lutz like Brian Boitano would get only 8.5 points for her effort – now show me that lady so I can make amends.
    ....

    What about figure skating? My favorite lady did two Lutzes and a flip in every program in her amazing amateur career. Her Lutzes were iffy, sometimes OK, sometimes wandering off a little to the wrong edge. A few ladies did (and do) a more creditable job of managing to keep a reasonable facsimile of an outside edge all the way to take-off. But I have never seen a lady do a triple Lutz like a man: that short but distinct-to-the-naked-eye deep curving edge heading out the wrong way, then that sudden explosive pop into the air like he is being shot from a cannon.
    Ye Bin Mok
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h7Za...eature=related
    Tonya Harding had a heck of a classic lutz. Skip to 2:10 and following on this to see it
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcDpq...eature=related

  12. #87
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Way more women have had classic lutzs than 3axels. But somehow Mathman, you want to get rid of the 3lutz, and encourage more 3axels, that a lot of women might never be able to do?

    Frankly a better idea would be to mandate that a skater attempts every jump entry in the long program. (single, double, or triple so pops count. :lol But say that loop and 2toe entrances don't count at the back end of combinations, unless they are a triple. (It would be unfair to say that 3flip2loop counts as the requirement because someone can't do a 3flip 2sal. However since a 3flip sequence 2 sal is possible (I believe, correct) That could be allowable. So someone could do a 3flip sequence 2loop and be okay with the requirements.

    This would ensure that people who have all the triples get a base value advantage over those who don't. And those with all the edge jumps can make up points over those who don't have them.
    Last edited by bekalc; 04-19-2010 at 07:07 PM.

  13. #88
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Way more women have had classic lutzs than 3axels. But somehow Mathman, you want to get rid of the 3lutz, and encourage more 3axels, that a lot of women might never be able to do?
    I have a problem with several lines of logic presented in this thread, which I'll have to go back to address...but it's all an interesting brainstorm. One way to consolidate these two seemingly contradictory positions is that maybe Mathman is trying to create more incentive for women to specifically try/do the 3A...I am still unsure about the sort of the reasoning that states, "many men do quads and even more do 3A's, so it's easier for them to do those than for women, so women should get higher rewards for doing those types of difficult jumps relative to the men"...because it confounds motivation with capability. I feel that part of the reason we don't see more women doing 3A's is because there hasn't been as much incentive for women to do them (which I suppose Mathman's suggestions are trying to fix.) Some ladies here and there tried it in their younger years, succeeded, and used it to their advantage in competitions.

    The leading 3A lady of today is Mao Asada. Take her as an example--what could have motivated her to try, succeed, and continue to train the 3A? In her younger years, she seemed to have experimented a lot with pushing her athletic boundaries, and it turned out that she had quite a talent in rotation in jumps. Then she kept it up partly because of needing to keep up with another technically strong rival in YuNa...and another part of it was the fact that Mao has been hit severely by the stricter edge rules on her Lutz. So, amusingly, those two points are tied to a similar goal: They could push for more women trying/learning the 3A (or even quads like Miki LOL).

    I just don't know why this direction in Figure Skating is desirable, though, and if I didn't know Mathman, I would be suspect of the intentions of wanting to go this route.

  14. #89
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    ...One way to consolidate these two seemingly contradictory positions is that maybe Mathman is trying to create more incentive for women to specifically try/do the 3A...I am still unsure about the sort of the reasoning that states, "many men do quads and even more do 3A's, so it's easier for them to do those than for women, so women should get higher rewards for doing those types of difficult jumps relative to the men"...because it confounds motivation with capability. d there tried it in their younger years, succeeded, and used it to their advantage in competitions.
    No, the opposite. I do not think the judging system should be used to encourage or discourage anything. I think it should be used to determine who skated the best.

    Raising the value of the 3A is a reflection of the fact that this jump deserves a big reward because it is a hard jump for women to master.

    Raising the value of the "Newjump with clear outside edge take-off" from 6.0 to 6.5 likewise rewards those few (as I still maintain -- but thanks for all the videos ) ladies who can do it.

    Not allowing 3 or 4 flatzy/flutzy/lippies in a program removes from the current judging system a wrong-header reward loop-hole that allows a skater to gain a lot of points just by flopping sloppily around without demonstrating any real skating skill.

    In order to get credit for the "new Lutz" the skater would have to be on a clear, unmistakable, apparent-to-the-naked-eye-in-real-time back outside edge. Under the present system the tech specialist must take out his protractor and look at each frame in slo-motion to see how many degrees plus or minus the edge is from the vertical. This is no good. If you can really do a Lutz, do a Lutz.

    Under the proposed Newjump idea, the burden of proof would be on the skater. An uncertain or borderline edge gets the 5.5 Newjump base value only.

    If this turns out to motivate future skaters to do something or not to do it, that is kind of irrelevant, IMHO. It is not the job of the scoring system to provide motivation to anyone.

    ...and if I didn't know Mathman, I would be suspect of the intentions of wanting to go this route.
    I am glad you know me. Rules, good or bad, apply to everyone, so I I have to plead innocent to suspicious intentions.

    These rules would help Mao Asada by giving her an extra 0.8 ppints for each triple Axel. They would raise the value of Kim's 3Lz+3T to 10.5 points (but m as gkelly notes, she could earn only +2 more GOE on the element). Kim, along with all other skaters, would have to substitute a different jump (maybe a loop) either for her second Lutz or her flip.

  15. #90
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    So, to back-track (I had an exam this morning so I really couldn't thoroughly address some points in this discussion I wanted to re-visit sooner)...

    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I look at it this way. According to the ISU scale of values, the 2A is grouped with the triple jumps as a baby triple, rather than a super single. Likewise, the 3A is grouped with the quads, not the triples.

    The gap between the highest double rotation jump (2Lz = 1.9) and the "baby triple" (2A = 3.5) is a whopping 84%.

    In contrast, there is only a 37% increase between the triple Lutz and the triple Axel. If the 84% rule were applied consistently, the proper value for the 3A would be 11.0 points. (Just saying...)
    I don't think the reason for the value of the 2A being so high is because it's considered a "baby triple", I think it's in there because it's still a required jump for the ladies (e.g. the SP) and if they miss it, it should be a pretty big deal. Again, however, as a thought experiment, if you want to consider an 84% value increase (I don't know why it has to be done in percentages, but let's run with it) for an additional half-rotation, then allow a 4T to have a base value of 20.2. A little too ridiculous in my book.

    37% increase in base value (for optional jumps) between the 3Lz and 3A remains the highest separation for a half-rotation's difference. The difference between a 3A and a 4T is 20%. All this points to be the quads being undervalued, not the 3A.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well, the topic of the thread was, should the value of triple Axels for women be increased (leaving men's the same). So we can cross the quad bridge later.
    I realize that...I thought I already addressed that sentiment by saying I do not want separate standards for elements both men and women are able to include in their programs. It has an oblique relation to this topic, because someone like Miki Ando (and maybe Sasha Cohen in another life ) is able to do quad Salchows...and we want to be pushing female athletic boundaries in this sport, right? My position is the same for the quads as it is for the triple Axel...keep the same base values between the men and the women. The 3A remains adequately rewarded, from the perspective of balanced competition in figure skating. I wonder why the Japanese Federation isn't pushing for the quads' value to be raised like they were proposing for the 3A...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    About percentages, we could look at it this way. How much is an extra revolution worth?

    2T to 3T: 208% increase in base value
    2S to 3S: 246% increase in base value
    2Lo to 3Lo: 233% increase in base value
    2F to 3F: 224% increase in base value
    2Lz to 3Lz: 216% increase in base value.

    2A to 3A: 134% increase in base value

    (I don't know what that proves, just looking at some numbers.)
    Mathman, I ran with your original percentages comparison for the jump values, but my actual judgment is that it is a very flawed and misleading way of looking at it. (Hence why the 4T having a base value of 20 by those principles is ridiculous.) I also already stated that I think the 2A is overvalued, but I gave a possible reason as to maybe why that is. I feel you are somewhat cherry-picking your responses to me rather than addressing all the relevant points in my posts, such as that proposed explanation (2A still being a required element in ladies FS competition), how the theoretical 3A value boosting and follow-up boosting of PCS, steps, spirals, etc. amounts to merely downgrading the relative value of all the other jumps (and whether that is what you want to see, and why if so--I think Dick Button would actually want to see the latter aspect, but I don't know about whether he'd want single jumps to become more rewarded)...

    Your percentages, in my book, don't "prove" anything, but presenting them in that way is a bit disingenuous. As an analogy, it is illegal for drug manufacturers in Canada to advertise that their Drug X lowers blood pressure 70% more than competitor Drug Y when the absolute clinical difference in studies is only say, 1.8 mmHg (i.e. the number looks far more impressive than the actual clinical impact.) It's worse when you don't give us your opinion of what the numbers mean or suggest to you The numbers, to me, just reinforce my viewpoint that the 2A is overvalued, but again, there might be a good reason for it being so. Did we not have a debate a short while ago as to whether or not the 3A should be an allowable 2A substitute for ladies in the SP? There were varied opinions about that (and my answer was that it depended on what the Figure Skating rulemakers wanted out of the SP vs. the LP--although I would lean towards allowing the 3A substitution.)

    To anyone else, I'd repeat the question about whether standards for GoE should be different for men and women. That is really the most burning question to me, since as I said, in principle I do not like the idea of men and women being given different base values (or PCS factors) when it comes to adding the points...but I am still extremely on the fence about this one. And it is true, with the possible exception of Midori Ito I cannot think of any woman who could be cited as being as impressive as the top men when it comes to height/speed/power of jumps, etc...

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