What will 2010-11 bring for Caroline Zhang?

czfan said:

I thought she received 3 downgrades and 2 edge calls at Worlds, which, IMO, is not uncommon for her. As for Caroline, unless you see her practices and know for a fact what steps she may or may not be taking and all of the details, than I'm not sure how anyone can classify what she is doing as a "half-hearted attempt" until we actually see her at a show or a competition.

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Well yeahh, she did, but she received no edge calls and no downgrades in Vancouver so I'm still gonna go by she fixed her technique. More so than Czisny who I can't remember the last time she landed more than 4 clean triples in a FS (and usually only 3 clean triples). I did word that wrongly, Caroline can do an overhaul with her current coach I just think it might be easier/more effective for her if she didn't with a different coach who specializes in technique. More an opinion than anything else. Hope she works out her issues though, it's so hard to see her sad all the time.

Funny thing though, Caroline and Mirai got virtually the same score (105) for Caroline's FS at 4CC and Miriai's FS at worlds and Caroline was really happy about that score and it was a great skate for her while Mirai was very disappointed with that score and it was a very bad skate for her. Shows that Mirai really is far, far ahead of Caroline at this point.

janetfan said:

I hadn't watched this before - here is Caroline's 2010 4CC Bronze medal winning LP.

Looking at this it is easy to see that Caroline has some very nice qualities but also needs to work on some problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOkkpgnKCbo


For comparison, here is Sasha skating to the same music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px2VRUSQAKg&NR=1

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Nice comparison, I hadn't made that one before. Also interesting because Sasha is sometimes bashed as not having the best edge quality, speed etc. IMO this was certainly not one of Sasha's best freeskates, a rather safe reinterpretation of Swan Lake.

On the other hand this is the most expressive and fast I have ever seen Caroline since the Spanish Gypsy SP at GPF that year.

Compared to Caroline, Sasha's jumps look textbook and her presence on the ice is light years ahead.

That was an interesting pair of performances to the Tchaikovsky. Sasha looks wonderful; this reminds me of how much I still miss her on the eligible circuit.

One thing I always notice about Caroline is her beautiful carriage. For upper-body posture like that, I'm willing to wait for her to fix her jumps.

silverlake22 said:

Funny thing though, Caroline and Mirai got virtually the same score (105) for Caroline's FS at 4CC and Miriai's FS at worlds and Caroline was really happy about that score and it was a great skate for her while Mirai was very disappointed with that score and it was a very bad skate for her. Shows that Mirai really is far, far ahead of Caroline at this point.

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Mirai was far, far ahead of Caroline last season; just like Caroline was far, far ahead of Mirai the season before. As for next season, we will have to wait and see.

PolymerBob said:

Mirai was far, far ahead of Caroline last season; just like Caroline was far, far ahead of Mirai the season before. As for next season, we will have to wait and see.

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If I had to guess Mirai will be the one to stay ahead in the future. Her speed is a gift and really makes her skating that much better, plus her spins are better than Caroline and she is more expressive. Caroline might make a comeback but I don't think she'll ever be able to catch Mirai. Caroline is a Sasha type skater - she'll never be the full package just because even if she does fix things her jumps won't be that high and she won't skate that fast. Mirai is the full package and that is the difference.

Tinymavy15 said:

On the other hand this is the most expressive and fast I have ever seen Caroline since the Spanish Gypsy SP at GPF that year.

Compared to Caroline, Sasha's jumps look textbook and her presence on the ice is light years ahead.

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It was a cruel comparison IMO. Next to Sasha Caroline looks stiff and tense in the upper body and completely unexpressive. At times her fists looked clenched and I don't like the way she swings her arms to hoist herself up in the jumps. She did seem faster though and the audience seemed to enjoy her.

I'm not very hopeful about Caroline. She had a stellar junior career but now when I look back on her performances the seeds of her current issues are all there. Her youth, prettiness, and competitive chops took attention away from her flaws back then - but she's not a Wunderkind now, she's bigger and less adorable, and she can't be called a great competitor any more. Mirai has completely stolen her thunder, IMO. Who knows, maybe she has the heart of a lion and will fight her way back, but her reluctance to make big changes suggests otherwise.

I'm no expert, so obviously this is JMHO.

I'm no expert, either, but I wonder if the reason Caroline does better in the off-season, at least as far as the rumors go that her jumps look improved, is because she is able to work on each jump alone, then once she puts them into a program, especially when in competition where nerves surface, muscle memory kicks in, and the old habits resurface.

As far as the Mirai comparison-IMO, Mirai has always had the better foundation and basic skills, even as a Jr. skater. She always had speed and bigger jumps. Yes, she always had a flutz and Frank is working to have her relearn her technique there (especially if they keep going for the 3z/3t) and I think her URs came with growth spurt/injuries, because her jumps looked better in 2006-08. Whereas, Caroline has always had suspect issues on her jumps, especially the 2ax, 3fl, and 3lz, and lacks speed/power to her skating. They are pretty even in spins, but I'd give the edge to Mirai for spirals and footwork (due to better speed and edges) . I think when Mirai felt more pressured at Worlds, she reverted back to her UR habits, basically relying on muscle memory to get through the LP. But the fact she was so on fire AND clean at Vancouver shows she's made big improvements to her jumps and presentation skills (IMO).

As far as the Sasha comparison goes-again IMO, I think they have very similar strengths and weaknesses, but Caroline's weakness are much more glaringly obvious. They both lack power, speed and deep edge work (Sasha HAS come a long way starting around 2005, I think, when she began to focus on those aspects). Both tend to wobble on their edges into toe jumps and have a high toe pick. Sasha has a much better 2ax though. Their strengths are their flexibility, the fact they can hit beautiful positions, have wonderful upper body carriage and amazing spinning ability. I've always felt both were more introverted skaters, although Sasha did a great job with her SP choices, just felt she never carried that same attitude/personality over to her LPs. Caroline seems to be the better mentally tougher competitor, she has shown when she is confident, she can keep her nerves in check and stay upright. I believe if she can fix her jumps, gain more speed/power, her confidence would be much higher and she'd deliver 7 triple LPs more often.

Actually, between Mirai and Caroline, I worry Mirai could take the same path as Sasha-deliver amazing SPs and succumb to pressure for the LPs. I really hope Frank works on this with Mirai. Part of me believes if she gets past her URs issues, no matter how nervous she may get, she'll be able to rely on her training and muscle memory to pull her through. Because of reports that Sasha wouldn't work on her weaknesses or do run-throughs, I always believed she lacked mental and physical preparation, so she would lose confidence as she tired, because she didn't have the muscle memory to fall back on.

MKFSfan, that's a very helpful and enlightening post, giving a great picture of the three skaters' strengths and weaknesses. I just went back to Google Images and looked at a few pictures of Caroline as a junior and recently, and I realized again how much I'd hate to lose her in the top ranks of skating.

There's an aspect of her skating that makes me a bit angry--not at her but at whoever trained her. Kids don't learn jumps out of a textbook or by copying other skaters. They learn from a teacher. Clearly, Caroline is hardworking and talented. So why does she have such an awful lutz? Someone let her get away with it. I'm willing to wager that she's spent as many hours on the ice (and in off-ice training) as Mirai or anyone else. (Maybe not Evan Lysacek; he's kind of famous for being the supreme workhorse!) Why were those hours wasted learning a flawed technique? I like to hope that a different coach will help her figure out how to rebuild her jumps. But it does make me angry that such bad habits were allowed to build just for the sake of letting her climb the ladder a bit earlier.

It makes me appreciate Frank Carroll even more. Not only does he seem to be figuring out how to help Mirai improve her technique, but he was able to ensure that Michelle had sound technique from the word go, so that even when she showed up in seniors at the age of twelve, her natural talent could reveal itself without impediment.

MKFSfan said:

Actually, between Mirai and Caroline, I worry Mirai could take the same path as Sasha-deliver amazing SPs and succumb to pressure for the LPs. I really hope Frank works on this with Mirai. Part of me believes if she gets past her URs issues, no matter how nervous she may get, she'll be able to rely on her training and muscle memory to pull her through. Because of reports that Sasha wouldn't work on her weaknesses or do run-throughs, I always believed she lacked mental and physical preparation, so she would lose confidence as she tired, because she didn't have the muscle memory to fall back on.

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I don't think that will happen to Mirai. I don't think she has ever fallen more than twice in a LP and the only times she did that was in the 08-09 season, and again it only happened twice. Mirai has no issues with the LP unless she is in 1st. Her LP at the Olympics was great and her LP at SC this year was definitely solid, her LP at nationals this year and the year before even with the URs were still strong performances. Once she gets used to being in 1st after the SP I think she'll handle it better. Also, out of fairness to Mirai at Worlds, I think she expected Yuna would be substantially ahead of her after the SP and maybe even Mao too, so being in 1st was a big shock and she didn't really know how to deal with it. Mirai is not one to choke under pressure so I think she will be fine - plus, her consistently stellar SPs will help.

PolymerBob said:

Mirai was far, far ahead of Caroline last season; just like Caroline was far, far ahead of Mirai the season before. As for next season, we will have to wait and see.

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Caroline was not that far ahead in 2008-9. She had a dissapointing GP, failed to make the final, changed her program back to Ave Maris before nationals because the other one was just not working. She had a bad SP there and failed to make the world team in her hometown. Mirai wasn't doing that well either, but Caroline was by no means "far ahead." they both suffered from underroation calls and flutzes.

Tinymavy15 said:

Caroline was not that far ahead in 2008-9. She had a dissapointing GP, failed to make the final, changed her program back to Ave Maris before nationals because the other one was just not working. She had a bad SP there and failed to make the world team in her hometown. Mirai wasn't doing that well either, but Caroline was by no means "far ahead." they both suffered from underroation calls and flutzes.

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I agree. But Mirai finished 5th and 9th at her GP events while Caroline finished 5th and 3rd, so she was ahead, but neither girl was particularly impressive last year, Caroline couldn't event beat Alissa with 3 triples in the LP at nationals despite delivering a clean LP.

silverlake22 said:

Caroline couldn't event beat Alissa with 3 triples in the LP at nationals despite delivering a clean LP.

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Well, that's not saying anything against Caroline. Alissa can win a National championship with 3 triples.:sheesh:

PolymerBob said:

Well, that's not saying anything against Caroline. Alissa can win a National championship with 3 triples.:sheesh:

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Didn't Caroline beat Alissa in the freeskate though? It was Caroline's bad SP and Alissa's great one that settled that placement.

Tinymavy15 said:

Didn't Caroline beat Alissa in the freeskate though? It was Caroline's bad SP and Alissa's great one that settled that placement.

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Nope. Caroline placed 4th in the FS, behind Alissa. Caroline was ridden with 3 edge calls on her flip and lutz (read -GOE) and got a DG on her second triple of her 3-3. They also docked her on PCS. (Alissa got 7 more points!)
Alissa was ahead of Caroline by 7 points in the SP, so that helped as well.
Ashley Wagner actually won the FS, but only got the pewter because of a really, really bad SP that put her in 12th after it (and 15 points behind 1st place). She only won the FS by 3 points.
Rachael placed second, but was 5 points behind in the SP. Rachael bet her by just 1 point in the LP.
Both Ashley and Rachael beat Alissa by 8 points technically but it was made up with Alissa getting about 8 points more in PCS.

Tinymavy15 said:

Didn't Caroline beat Alissa in the freeskate though? It was Caroline's bad SP and Alissa's great one that settled that placement.

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I am not sure why Silverlake would single out Caroline? Alissa won the Natl Championship in '09- and she also beat Rachael, Ashley and Mirai - not just Caroline.

Here is her beautiful SP (such lovely skating probably earned her the "beauty bonus.")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7eNDmgq704&feature=related

janetfan said:

I am not sure why Silverlake would single out Caroline? Alissa won the Natl Championship in '09- and she also beat Rachael, Ashley and Mirai - not just Caroline.

Here is her beautiful SP (such lovely skating probably earned her the "beauty bonus.")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7eNDmgq704&feature=related

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I was just trying to make a point that Caroline, even when she lands her jumps, still has a lot of things she needs to work on. Alissa has a lot of things she needs to work on and still managed to beat Caroline in the FS after landing 3 triples and falling once while Caroline landed 7 (though edge calls and a UR call hurt her). Alissa's SP was beautiful, there is no denying that, and that is why she won the title, but I was talking about the FS only, because Alissa did beat Caroline in that portion. Alissa is a tier 2 skater on the world stage and even with a poor performance she edged out Caroline, that was all I was trying to point out.

Sylvia said:

Carried over from the 2009-10 thread:



It's the start of a brand new season, so I'm taking the initiative to create a new thread for Caroline Zhang. If someone has a more creative title for this thread, please suggest it.

I'm told that she is still training with Coach Li Mingzhu in Artesia, CA.

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Thanks for the update. No mule kick, an improvement for sure. BTW who else is training wsith Li Mingzhu?

rtureck said:

Thanks for the update. No mule kick, an improvement for sure. BTW who else is training wsith Li Mingzhu?

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No one significant that I know of, which may be why Caroline is staying with her, she can be her "star pupil" and receive undivided attention that she needs to fix her issues.

WAIT, no mule kick ? I'll believe it when I see it.

rtureck said:

Thanks for the update. No mule kick, an improvement for sure. BTW who else is training wsith Li Mingzhu?

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I remember reading that she had a trio of Chinese girls that had come from China to train with her a year or two ago...not sure if they are still there.