Historical performance vs. 2010 (Ice Dance)

[wallylutz]

I came across two clips back in the 2001-2002 Olympic season where the performance were surprisingly comparable as far as the requirements and standards are concerned compared to the Ice Dance we know today in 2010. Both were historical performance of their time.

First: The Flamenco / Latin Combination by Anissina/Peizerat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT968...eature=related

The obvious question I'd like to ask, do you like Anissina/Peizerat's Flamenco better or this year's Olympic and World winning OD? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuUm5n0gySQ


Second: Michael Jackson Free Dance by Bourne/Kraatz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2pOhFF9UAM

Bourne/Kraatz were the first team to break the European grip in Ice Dance and this skate marked the dramatic turnaround in their career and eventually led up to the IJS as we know today. This Free Dance contained surprisingly many comparable elements based on the 2010 standards, including sync. twizzles. They certainly paved the way for B/A, D/W, D/L and V/M. How would you rate this skate against the two best FD in 2010?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpXlj7KVPcQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czm3qxtaeWQ


I'd like to kindly ask that we keep this discussion strictly on Ice Dance only. If you want to talk about historical Singles or Pair skating, please feel free to start another thread.

[blue_idealist]

First of all, Anissina & Peizerat and Virtue & Moir's flamencos were both extremely good, obviously. I hadn't seen A & P's in a long time. Technically, I think that there is no doubt V & M are better. Their twizzles and edges look better, and their lifts look more difficult. If I would give A & P the edge in any area, it would be their interpretation/expression. I think that they might have interpreted the character of the dance a bit better than V & M, although V & M's interpretation was also good. If I was a judge and these programs were in the same competition, I would probably put V & M in first.

Ahhh, on to the free dances. This is difficult. I love Bourne & Kraatz's Michael Jackson FD. I think it's the best one they've ever done and it's my favourite program ever. It's more easily comparable with Davis & White's Phantom than Virtue and Moir's FD (whatever the song is, lol, I forget), because the styles are more similar between B & K and D & W in these particular programs: fast, a lot of footwork going on, and dramatic. V & M don't have as much footwork going on, but they somehow look smoother and the program looks more effortless, while you can tell that B & K and D & W are putting effort in and they are choppier in places. Although I prefer B & K's PERSONALLY, I think that V & M have the better program. I would give B & K the edge over D & W though - they look more into the performance, and I think they are slightly smoother. I noticed that D & W travelled on a spin, too.. never noticed that before when watching this skate. B & K really deserved an Olympic medal though, for this, if they skated it like this at the Olympics (I haven't seen the 2002 Olympic FDs in a long time, and I assume the one I just watched with this link was Worlds). I also think B & K deserved more World Championship wins too. They might be the most underrated team in ice dance history.. btw though, I don't think Riverdance was exactly underrated.. B & K's later programs are much better - like this MJ one.

[sophie]

Technically, I think that there is no doubt V & M are better. Their twizzles and edges look better, and their lifts look more difficult. If I would give A & P the edge in any area, it would be their interpretation/expression.

if you will look like this even junior teams like Shibutani&Shibutani (twizzle and lifts better than A&P) and Ilinykh&Katsalapov better than all the ice dance olympic champions. not just V&M.

sorry for my english.

[Mrs. P]

Good post, Wallylutz.
Anyway my take is that the 2010 Olympic champions and silver medalists are clearly more crisp and snappier than either A/P or B/K. But I do agree that at the the time those moves were creative considering where ice dancing was at during that time. There's no doubt the standards expected today probably came out a few rematching of programs such as those.

[blue_idealist]

if you will look like this even junior teams like Shibutani&Shibutani (twizzle and lifts better than A&P) and Ilinykh&Katsalapov better than all the ice dance olympic champions. not just V&M.

sorry for my english.

Unfortunately I've never seen either of these teams, but I have heard a lot of good things about Ilinykh & Katsalapov.

By the way, what about V & M vs. Grishuk and Platov? D & W vs. G & P? D & W and V &M vs. Usova and Zhulin? Thoughts?

[dorispulaski]

B&K's dance is a rather open dance for a pre COP dance, and so does look rather like 2010 dance, but a closer look at B&K's dance will show that while it is a very busy dance (and has some great posing character sections, particularly at the beginning), that if you graded this dance under COP, it would not score well, particularly on the technical side, despite the fact that ShaeLynn particularly is a great performer.
1. The twizzles are all in one direction, and so are level one. They are, however, a well done level one.
2. There is a great deal of running around on the flats of the skates. Level 4s on step sequences under COP require every step to be on a distinct edge. Frankly, B&K's edges are nowhere close to V&M's, nor to D&W's. BTW, excessive running around on the flats and skating on 2 feet was a no no in 2002's ice dance rules, too.
3. The pair spin does not have a difficult entry, much speed of rotation, nor very many rotations.
4. The lifts are more labored and less difficult than either V&M's and D&W's, and they were running out of steam and getting sloppy with the final lift.
5. There are some sections where while the acting is good, the timing has flaws.
6. D&W are markedly faster thant B&K, and V&M are noticeably smoother.


So I would give the technical edge to the 2 modern teams. Furthermore, it would be more fair to V&M to compare their Olympic FD, which was a better performance than their Worlds FD.

All three FD's got standing ovations from the audiences, so all were good performances from an audience standpoint.

It's difficult to compare the greats of the past to teams of different eras, because the rules were so different. All the older champions were better CD skaters (especially in the easier dances) than the current crop, simply because they skated first 3 CD's, and later 2 CD's per competition.

I've been rewatching dances of the past lately to try to figure out who was better than who, and was surprised to find that if I were starting at 1989 and working forward, the one team that could have scored well under any rules for me would be Usova and Zhulin. As competitors though they had the worst luck ever.

Here's some playlists I've been making.

http://www.youtube.com/user/gloryday#p/p

The playlists come up at the right hand side of the channel, as shown.
The ones that are complete are listed below:


Anissina/Peizerat

Belbin/Agosto

Bourne/Kraatz

Davis/White

Grishuk/Platov
[
Klimova/Ponomarenko

Rahkamo/Kokko


I still have a lot more to put together, but this should keep you busy for a while.

[Ptichka]

I've been rewatching dances of the past lately to try to figure out who was better than who, and was surprised to find that if I were starting at 1989 and working forward, the one team that could have scored well under any rules for me would be Usova and Zhulin. As competitors though they had the worst luck ever.

Hmmm... Zhulin's comment on V&M and D&W was "one can kill himself trying to do THAT". Both he and Platov said that in their competitive days they never even though things those two teams are doing were possible.

[gkelly]

This Free Dance contained surprisingly many comparable elements based on the 2010 standards, including sync. twizzles.

You do realize that the required elements (twizzles, although originally not necessarily side by side; dance spins; step sequences) were introduced into free dances beginning with the 1998-99 season, so everybody was doing them in some form ca. 2002?

[wallylutz]

You do realize that the required elements (twizzles, although originally not necessarily side by side; dance spins; step sequences) were introduced into free dances beginning with the 1998-99 season, so everybody was doing them in some form ca. 2002?

It's been a long time, I think you are right but I have forgot. My memory pre-2002 is a little fuzzy. And when I get lazy, like here, , I skip my homework before posting.

[dorispulaski]

Yes, but I believe U&Z would have been able to do those things if they had started young! (Of course I'm a huge U&Z fan ) Always have been since I saw their Europeans 1989 Indian Temple Dance FD. And their ability portray the characters of the different dances was absolutely wonderful. And their posture and line was impeccable. And their edges were great.

I've filled in several more of the compilation playlists-
Usova & Zhulin
Krylova & Ovsiannakov
Moniotte & Lavanchy
Domnina & Shabalin

Still more to go. I'm trying to get playlists for all the world gold & silver medallists since 1989, plus a few extra favorites of mine.

By the way, wallylutz, the question about A&P's flamenco and V&M's flamenco is a much harder question than about the FD's. As a flamenco, V&M's is a nice roughly Spanish themed dance, very well done. A&P's is actually flamenco. As a firm believer that in the OD/OSP, one should first show the character of the dance in every required move and as many of the transitional moves as possible, A&P's wins. However, V&M's was harder, but since the arm details and stamping details of flamenco are just sketched in (and no flamenco lady would let herself be turned upside like Tessa), I have my reservations about this dance as an OD (but not as a piece of ice dance performance) If it were an FD, I would unhesitating endorse V&M, but as an OD, A&P.

What a waffler I am.

[Olympia]

Doris, thanks for your analysis! I've got to sit down with a pencil and paper and go through the dances with your notes. I feel I will see so much more than I thought I was looking at when I first watched these programs. But even though my appreciation of skating sometimes stays down at the "oh, boy, I love this music!" level, I've always found Usova and Zhulin just about at the top of my fave list. I was actually rooting for them in the 1994 Olympics, not Torvill/Dean (because I found T/D's free dance unsatisfying that season). U/Z had a flow to their movements that I don't remember seeing in any other couple, and of course Zhulin was a wonderful "engine" for their team in terms of creativity. I don't remember how much of their choreography he was doing at the time, but later on he certainly showed his quality in programs he created for Kurt Browning as a pro, as well as Navka/Kostomarov. To my mind in that 1994 Olympics, U/Z made Grischuk/Platov look angular and frenzied by comparison.

I also like your comparison of A/P's flamenco with V/M's. I'll rewatch with your points in mind. I should be able to figure out the flamenco moves: I watched three Carlos Saura flamenco movies a good many times and fell in total love with Antonio Gades...surely that crush will give me insight into the subtleties of ice dance interpretations!

[wallylutz]

By the way, wallylutz, the question about A&P's flamenco and V&M's flamenco is a much harder question than about the FD's. As a flamenco, V&M's is a nice roughly Spanish themed dance, very well done. A&P's is actually flamenco.

As a point of information, A/P's 2002 OD was in fact a "Latin Combination" as opposed to being strictly a Flamenco. Their middle section was in fact a Tango, not a Flamenco.

As a firm believer that in the OD/OSP, one should first show the character of the dance in every required move and as many of the transitional moves as possible, A&P's wins.

If I understand you correctly, I think you are saying that the interpretation aspect of the dance is the most critical aspect of an Original Dance. If so, I tend to agree with your sentiment and note that IN receives higher factor than the other 4 components. That said, I don't see what parts of V/M's interpretation that would constitute a lack of character. At this level, I think we are literally splitting hair if we are talking about which dance has better interpretation. Though one thing I tend to agree is that A/P has a more mature interpretation whereas V/M came across as "young". Well, they are young. A/P were significantly older when they skated their 2002 OD in Salt Lake City. In many ways, V/M still looks like kids.

However, V&M's was harder, but since the arm details and stamping details of flamenco are just sketched in (and no flamenco lady would let herself be turned upside like Tessa), I have my reservations about this dance as an OD (but not as a piece of ice dance performance) If it were an FD, I would unhesitating endorse V&M, but as an OD, A&P.

In terms of transitions and in-between skating moves and the overall intricacy of the dance, I agree V/M are clearly superior. As for the upside down lift by V/M, it's an adaptation of Flamenco on ice, just as the dance itself is a vertical dance performed in very tight and confined space but has to become horizontal when transferred to the ice. That lift doesn't seem to make the most intuitive sense as far as a Flamenco is concerned but not necessarily out of character. In all Spanish themed dances, it is critical for the man to play a dominant role and the facial expression of both partners to be passionate. In this sense, Scott lifting Tessa upside down on one arm continues to show his control and supports that gender specific interplay that is important in a Flamenco or a Paso Doble, for that matter. Whether a lady dancing to a Flamenco would allow her partner to lift her upside down is difficult to say given that the Flamenco on the floor has other constraints not existent compared to a Flamenco that is skated on ice.

This is always a challenge when trying to judge the character of a specific type of dance when transferred to the ice. My preference is to give ice dancers some leeway in their interpretation but that doesn't include insulting a culture by depicting that culture as uneducated and barbaric cavemen like a team did this season. :sheesh:

That said, I'd likely give A/P an edge over V/M as far as the IN is concerned. Whether that would mean the entire PCS being higher, not sure. V/M is clearly superior as far as SS and MO are concerned. The PCS may turn out to be somewhat of a wash, all things considered.

[wallylutz]

B&K's dance is a rather open dance for a pre COP dance, and so does look rather like 2010 dance, but a closer look at B&K's dance will show that while it is a very busy dance (and has some great posing character sections, particularly at the beginning), that if you graded this dance under COP, it would not score well, particularly on the technical side, despite the fact that ShaeLynn particularly is a great performer.

Let me start by saying that I did not intend the FD comparison to be strictly analyzed based on COP standards since this would clearly put B/K at a distinct disadvantage compared to V/M and D/W for obvious reasons. But you raised some interesting points, I'll give you my thoughts on some of them.

1. The twizzles are all in one direction, and so are level one. They are, however, a well done level one.
2. There is a great deal of running around on the flats of the skates. Level 4s on step sequences under COP require every step to be on a distinct edge. Frankly, B&K's edges are nowhere close to V&M's, nor to D&W's. BTW, excessive running around on the flats and skating on 2 feet was a no no in 2002's ice dance rules, too.
3. The pair spin does not have a difficult entry, much speed of rotation, nor very many rotations.
4. The lifts are more labored and less difficult than either V&M's and D&W's, and they were running out of steam and getting sloppy with the final lift.
5. There are some sections where while the acting is good, the timing has flaws.
6. D&W are markedly faster thant B&K, and V&M are noticeably smoother.

Point number 2 has some merit but I have to disagree in parts. B/K were known for their deep, long edges in their skating. In fact, one of the most defined advantages from early on has been their highly superior edge quality. That said, in this particular dance, that strength is not well showcased, hence, I think you have a point. After reading your comments, I went back and checked their step sequences carefully, ignoring the COP standards since that's not applicable in their time, she looked fine to me, her edges were not flat, I saw distinct use of edges by her. Him, I am not so sure, it did look a little excessively flat on the part of Victor Kraatz. Even then, the use of edges in footwork is a very generic criteria. While what you said is correct, skaters should avoid using excessive flat edges in their footwork or the overall construction of their dance, it has to be considered as a part of the program as whole as opposed to being viewed in isolation. The intricacy of the in-between and complexity of their steps and movements most certainly compensate for a little more use of flats. It comes down to a question of common sense. The type of choreography and the kind of moves they had most likely made such use of the edges a necessity because the movements were so fast and intricate. If we have to strictly apply the edge criteria, then their Riverdance footwork in 1998 would have to considered low grade as well since it was almost entirely built with toe steps with no distinct edges. But then, how do you transfer Irish step dancing on ice then?

Point #1 and #3 are issues with COP, criteria unknown to B/K so can't hold it against them.

Point #4 is questionable. The final lifts would be transitional lifts under CoP, which means they count for bonus points in CH but not more. B/K had their 3 lifts already in their FD program, starting with the straight line lift + rotational lift combo. All of which, were surprisingly good in design and not labored at all. Lifts is an aspect of Ice Dance that has started to pick up difficulty post-2002. In the 6.0 era, it was seldom to see dance lifts of great creativity or difficulty. A few teams like A/P and D/L were known for their innovation in this area, which pushed the sport in the direction of more acrobatic lifts. In light of this, I found the B/K's lifts in this FD to be surprisingly, very competitive today and certainly much stronger than any of their competitors in their time except A/P.

Point #5, I guess I'll need you to please point to me the specifics as to where you think the timing was flawed. I didn't notice anything in particular and obvious enough that would raise a red flag in my opinion.

Point #6, I think D/W were faster but their in-between are also easier compared to B/K. My main criticism of their Phantom of the Opera is that their in-between are not intricate enough, committing the same flaw that many European teams used to have - lots of speed but very little in-between. In that sense, it makes the question of who is better more difficult because one has more speed, one seems smoother but another seems more intricate.

[dorispulaski]

As a point of information, A/P's 2002 OD was in fact a "Latin Combination" as opposed to being strictly a Flamenco. Their middle section was in fact a Tango, not a Flamenco.

This is true, but as we were comparing flamenco to flamenco, I wasn't discussing the tango part of A/P's dance.

V/M's dance is supposed to be a farruca (traditionally, it's a man's dance, although both men & women do farrucas these days, so I'm told):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LglG-...ext=1&index=30

Notice the importance of the arms in this dance, as well as in other forms of flamenco. There is arm detail going on all the time, and there are a lot of different arm positions and movements that V&M could have picked out to make a more flamenco impression IMO. But that's all it is, my opinion. And in fact, the judges very seldom if ever slam the character in a dance, despite the fact that the OD definitions give both additions and deductions to GOE based on showing and failing to show the character of the rhythm/dance chosen. As to the upside down lift, since it is not done in flamenco for various reasons partially connected to modesty and partially connected to the fact that the huge skirt is involved, they shouldn't have done the upside down lift-it was gorgeous, and a real highlight, but that's the point with character--there are plenty of right side up level 4 lifts they could have done without doing an upside down one. For that matter, both their Goose and Rio Wrap lifts don't go upside down. Additionally, since farruca is in nature a man's dance, the upside down thing fits even less well.

A&P and V&M's OD's are Olympic-winning OD's, so of necessity, comparisons to attempt to give one team the edge over the other are going to be very nitpicky, so of course (and I apologize), I'm being nitpicky.

[colleen o'neill]

I always loved A/P's Flamenco OD .Their flamenco styling ( and timing ) was impeccable.And their choice of music lent itself much better to all the styling details and syncopations. I was always sorry though, that it had to be a medley. I never liked the tango bit being in there. Broke the spell for me..and I hate to see Tango done in a Spanish costume , even such gorgeous ones as theirs.

V/M's OD ,on the other hand , benefits from not having to include another dance, so the spell is unbroken. I found the intricacies of the dance, and their fabulous execution, compensated for the pared down styling. Even pared down, it was Flamenco ( esp. Scott)

But still, if I had to choose..I couldn't. I guess the appley , orangey thing just isn't workin' out for me . Also making it more difficult to choose is the fact that I prefer V/M over all and like pretty well everything they've done, but this A/P OD is my favourite program of theirs , bar none.