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Thread: Possible Khokhlova/ Andreev partnership

  1. #31
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    This is from movies but Francis Ford Coppola was accepting of Sofia Coppola's performance in Godfather part 3. Any parent may convince themselves that their kid is good in something. And of course Andy Garcia acted opposite her. I hope Andreev is not Sofia and Yana is not poor Andy Garcia!! Andreev has no professional dance experience and all of a sudden he may represent a Dance powerhouse! I hope this works out if it gets past the test stage! khokhlova is too good to leave skating.

  2. #32
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    bekalc..I don't think Marina and Igor's various interviews necessarily show any disingenuousness. Their work is the product of the Russian school of skating ,even if they took their skill and knowledge in directions they wouldn't have been able to in Russia. I'm pretty sure no Russians have asked before , but I doubt Z/S would have said no, as long as there was no interference from the Russian federation.
    OTOH, I'm sure they're both grateful for the opportunities they've had in their new countries...and I'm sure Marina was sincere when she told Canadian TV that she considered Tessa and Scott her 'Canadian Diamonds" ( how often does talent like that drop into a coach's hands ?)
    I was just saying that I don't think in interview, Zoueva and company have made it sound disingenous. I was just letting Wally lutz know, that I got a different impression from some different articles.

    But mainly I thought it was pretty rich for him to suggest disloyalty for coaches that were developed in the former Soviet Union to want to work with both North Americans and Russians. Yes Canada may have given her a job, but I doubt its lost on her or Igor that the only reason they were valuable to Canada/N. America was because of their training in the Russian school.

    As for the Russian ballet, I think that some of the issues here are deeper because I don't think Russian ballet ever truly suffered (Its still the best in the world) and plus its not like its a competition, its an art. Russian skating has suffered with the mass exodus.

    I think its just one of those things were it can be hard to see countries who produced some of the greatest in gymnastics and skating, to suffer due to lack of coaches, when well they developed great coaches who are being used in other countries.

    In gymnastics Ukraine and Belarus who used to have amazing gymnasts like Tourisheva, Gutsu, Podkaypeva, and in Belarus: Boginskaya are now struggling to produce gymnasts at all. Its a very sad situation. Russia has struggled to but they have been able to convince some coaches to comeback in the last two years. They even managed to convince a legendary Ukranian coach to comeback and work with their Juniors. This guy originally wanted to go back to the Ukraine but he decided against it because the Ukraine federation heavily underfunds their gymnasts and I suspect he didn't think he could be successful without funding. Where in contrast, the Russians not only offered him more pay, but the promise of really funding the gymnasts. I'm sure it helped too that people like Alexandrov who just came back who he worked with in the past are gone. They even convinced a big name coach who was working in Canada to come back too and run their entire program. I suspect though that for Russians the fact that Ostanpenko was a top Soviet coach, they probably don't consider it the same as a"foreign coach" :lol: Although frankly I do find it sad that he couldn't help save Ukranian gymnastics, but I understand his feelings. He did coach in the Ukraine for quite awhile after the break up.

    Already the Russian girls especially are improving at an alarming rate, and fans of the sport are thrilled to see it happen. Of course I highly doubt that the Americans, Romanian, Chinese gymnastics federations are thrilled that Alexandrov and Ostanpenko are back at Round Lake.
    Last edited by bekalc; 05-01-2010 at 08:46 AM.

  3. #33
    Brazilian Eurotrash beep_beep's Avatar
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    I thought this was just one of those crazy rumours...

    Khokhlova/Andreev??? Oh, dear.

    Is it really happening??

  4. #34
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    1. I thought Shabalin was mostly joking when he made that comment (in the sense that he knew it was silly, but that it would likely help). English isn't his first language so I think he gets the benefit of the doubt with that comment. More generally, Z/S obviously benefited from the Russian system. They also benefit from the American/Canadian economy. Is it really any different than Brian Orser training Kim?

    2. Colleen, your comment about Jana as a test balloon seems plausible. The dramatic way the team of K/N were raised and dropped over the last three seasons sorta lends credence. I don't know if Zueva would allow that though and it does seem the consequences would negate the tactical advantage, though.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post

    2. Colleen, your comment about Jana as a test balloon seems plausible. The dramatic way the team of K/N were raised and dropped over the last three seasons sorta lends credence. I don't know if Zueva would allow that though and it does seem the consequences would negate the tactical advantage, though.
    Russia has definitely been trying to "recall" Russian coaches back to Russia and even go as far as kicking out foreigners training in Russia and made it clear they will no longer allow foreigners to train there with a few exceptions. Whether Shabalin's comment was a joke or not, the reality is Russian Fed. has definitely gone that direction since.

    Zueva has been quite desperate trying to find a female dance partner for her son - actually for quite a while. But in almost all cases, Fedor managed to scare the girls away and has developed a reputation of being a "bad boy". As recent as this past February during the Vancouver Olympic, I heard from the mother of a sync. skater who is on the Canadian world team - her daughter trains or trained in the same club as Zueva. Marina has repeatedly encouraged her to pair up with Fedor in Ice Dance. That woman told me her daughter said no way and gave me a fairly detailed accounts of Fedor's "history". No wonder he was never able to find anybody who would want to train with him. As for Jana Khokolova, I can only say "good luck"!

  6. #36
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    I thought that by the time Shabalin made the comment, the effort was already well underway to get coaches to return.

    bekalc - I completely understand the ambivalence , even resentment that may prevail in Russia over the coaching situation. I can even sympathize... well, particularly with the fans. But the reality is that with all that went on in the world at large in the last 40-odd yrs., the situation as it exists now was pretty well inevitable. I hope that with all that's going on in the world today, bad feelings may get resolved more quickly . I think the internationalization of coaching is likely to benefit everyone in the long run.

    I'm a real outsider when it comes to gymnastics.. I'm not sure my little brain can begin to take that all in. It's all so..Byzantine.

    ImaginaryPogue - I don't necessarily mean the trial balloon scenario in an entirely negative way, and I'm not entirely convinced that it's right..just leaning that way. I would hope no skater was simply being used by their federation. Maybe Jana truly has no feasible option for a partner in Russia at this time. Z/S are indisputably at the top of the coaching field now.They would be fools to leave behind what they worked so hard to build. They've made lives for themselves, formed emotional, as well as professional ties where they are. They have as much talent available to them as a coach could wish for.

    They've said they would be willing to take on a Russian team, but the RSF may want to be completely sure they treat all their students equally before they commit a team they see as already having great potential to them. ( Didn't many of us feel B/A were given short shrift by Linichuk once D/S came under her wing ?)I think the RSF would want to be sure their team wouldn't find themselves in such a situation. They know they couldn't hope for favoritism , but maybe fairness would be enough. They'd want to be sure though.

    Some people ( mostly on FSU , and mostly those who already view Z/S with a jaundiced eye )want to see Jana as a sacrifice to Zoueva's ambitions for her son...sort of the price Russia has to pay to gain entree for some other team. I think that's a bit simplistic.

    It's probably just more like opening negotiations..and if Jana & Fedor can gain something by it , everyone could be satisfied. But I do think that whatever the RSF's thinking , whatever Zoueva's hopes to see her son's talent achieve something, once they take it on, it will be a serious project for Z/S....whew!

    wallylutz - I haven't had access to any information that was so close to inside... but even I've heard a bit of Fedor gossip from my ( west coast) skating friends over the years. However, don't you think it's possible that a young man - even a flighty ,lazy , 'bad boy' - might reach a point where he'd see the writing on the wall and say, "This could be my last chance, I'd better buckle down?" I won't hold my breath , but I'm willing to wait and see ( and be entertained ). Jana may be , in some respects , soft and oh-so-pliable , but I sense a core of steel within.
    Last edited by colleen o'neill; 05-02-2010 at 02:58 AM.

  7. #37
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Is it really any different than Brian Orser training Kim?
    The main difference is Orser is training in Canada, and that means that he can also coach young Canadian skaters and does. Russian coaches training in other countries can't do this. Of course, I will say that the Russia's top coaches moving to North America, saved Russian skating in the short term because it allowed their top skaters to get adequate training conditions. The biggest loss I think for the Russians was really their lower level coaches who established their kids basics, before they moved on to the top coaches, at least thats what I think.

    I think the internationalization of coaching is likely to benefit everyone in the long run.
    Really, everyone? I think the Russians did benefit short term. But I don't think everyone benefits from the internationalization of coaching. I know for example the Romanians joke that everyone has a Romanian gymnastics coach (and just about everyone but Russia and China do) and so soon their will be no more Romanian coaches left for Romanians. The Romanians can't afford to compete for their coaches-let along get a foreign coach to boast them in their historical weakness bars...

    In this sense I don't feel that sorry for lets say Russia because they can now afford to hire back the best coaches from the former Soviet system and they are doing so. Whether they be Russian, Ukranian etc. I honestly don't consider a Ukranian coach working in Russia or a Russian coach working in the Ukraine as the same thing, because it seems to me that sports system was the achievement of all in the Soviet Union. But its sad to see nations like the Ukraine losing out of their best skaters/coaches, or becoming weak in gymnastics due to lack of coaching. Of course part of the problem is the Ukraine itself. Some of the coaches might have been willing to suffer less pay with adequate support. But less pay and no support to be competitive-not so much..
    Last edited by bekalc; 05-02-2010 at 03:38 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    The main difference is Orser is training in Canada, and that means that he can also coach young Canadian skaters and does. Russian coaches training in other countries can't do this. Of course, I will say that the Russia's top coaches moving to North America, saved Russian skating in the short term because it allowed their top skaters to get adequate training conditions. The biggest loss I think for the Russians was really their lower level coaches who established their kids basics, before they moved on to the top coaches, at least thats what I think.
    I wasn't aware Orser coached Canadian skaters. I only know of Kim, Gao, Kwak and Rippon

  9. #39
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I wasn't aware Orser coached Canadian skaters. I only know of Kim, Gao, Kwak and Rippon
    He coaches a Canadian Junior I believe. And I think a Canadian pairs team. I would assume you can take lessons (maybe not from him) at the club he teaches at too. So that really is the main difference between a coach taking on a foreign student or two, and a coach completely training in another country. The issue for the Russians is when all the coaches left, there were few coaches available for the kids who wanted to take up skating. The already discovered big time skaters were fine, but the young ones who were just starting out/or wanted to start.

    A better example would be if the majority of the skating rinks closed down and the coaches in the skating clubs, the majority left and all moved to other countries in Asia. Now maybe Frank Carroll let Mirai Nagasu move with him, but this meant that Frank and his associates were no longer working with the younger kids etc. I somehow don't think 10 years later that Americans, or Canadians would consider what happened "mutually beneficial." Maybe it would be beneficial for the coaches and the Asian skaters. But it wouldn't be beneficial for the Americans. However, the main thing to would be our government didn't pay for Frank Carroll's training etc.

    And the difference between the Americans and the Russians, is that in the case of the Russian coaches, a lot of their training was given to them for free by the government. And all governments are financed directly or indirectly by their people. So indirectly the Russians can feel like they paid for those coaches knowledge. Which can lead to how new feelings. I'm not sure what can be done though because I do think skating benefits from more depth. And I also think that the Russians could benefit to from this system, if they wanted too. But I can see where the resentment is coming from, and I especially feel for countries like Romania in this scenario.
    Last edited by bekalc; 05-02-2010 at 03:56 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen o'neill View Post
    I haven't had access to any information that was so close to inside... but even I've heard a bit of Fedor gossip from my ( west coast) skating friends over the years. However, don't you think it's possible that a young man - even a flighty ,lazy , 'bad boy' - might reach a point where he'd see the writing on the wall and say, "This could be my last chance, I'd better buckle down?" I won't hold my breath , but I'm willing to wait and see ( and be entertained ). Jana may be , in some respects , soft and oh-so-pliable , but I sense a core of steel within.
    Her (almost former) coach said in a interview that Khokhlova is the leader of the couple because she has a very dominant personality.

    Makes me wonder how will be the relatioship with Andreev

  11. #41
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    I don't necessarily mean the trial balloon scenario in an entirely negative way, and I'm not entirely convinced that it's right..just leaning that way. I would hope no skater was simply being used by their federation. Maybe Jana truly has no feasible option for a partner in Russia at this time. Z/S are indisputably at the top of the coaching field now.They would be fools to leave behind what they worked so hard to build. They've made lives for themselves, formed emotional, as well as professional ties where they are. They have as much talent available to them as a coach could wish for.

    They've said they would be willing to take on a Russian team, but the RSF may want to be completely sure they treat all their students equally before they commit a team they see as already having great potential to them. ( Didn't many of us feel B/A were given short shrift by Linichuk once D/S came under her wing ?)I think the RSF would want to be sure their team wouldn't find themselves in such a situation. They know they couldn't hope for favoritism , but maybe fairness would be enough. They'd want to be sure though.
    The only problem with this theory is I'm not sure that a partnership that involves Marina's own son, is a suitable "test ballon." Frankly I worry that this situation is going to hurt some of Russia's extremely talented junior teams, with the Russians pushing Fedor/Jana, even if the other teams are better.

    I don't think focusing one team of coaches is the way to go for Russia. I don't think ONE pair of top coaches was what made the Soviet system successful. I think it was the fact that training was based big time on talent, not your money. (although politics played a role). And the fact that they not only had strong top coaches, but they had strong lower level coaches working with their young skaters developing strong basics. The Russians might not be able to convince Igor and Marina to come back, but they just might be able to convince some of their other coaches to come back.. The US economy isn't going so well, and well Igor and Marina have pretty much a political strangelhold on US dance. The Russians might be able to convince a talented coach like Angelica Kryolov to come back if the price is right... They could also have their other very successful coaches help train younger coaches too. I think it would be just foolish for the Russians to sacrifice Jana, or some of their young ice dancers future success for the hopes of getting one team of coach.

    And besides I have a feeling if the Russians were able to establish a successful system that was more humane but based on their old system of developing talent (like subsidized lessons). People like Igor and Marina might 10 years from now, actually be more interested in coaching Russians. They know how well that system works.

    And really Zhulin is starting to develop a quite strong team himself. He's doing great work with his young teams and there's talk that he's even having Stavisky working with his young teams....I just think things are already looking up for them in Ice dance with their younger talent, and they need to focus on those things, and building a new system. Not on one group of coaches.
    Last edited by bekalc; 05-02-2010 at 07:16 PM.

  12. #42
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    I think the main problem with the test balloon theory is that probably none of us is used to thinking along as politically complicated lines as the RSF.

    And I'm not fearful for their younger teams..I don't think the RSF will particularly beat the drum for Jana, they'll most likely still keep their focus for the future where it seems to be now, on B/S and I/K...( who knows what's going on with Rubleva /Shefer..someone said somewhere that they were thinking over their situation) But they won't dump Jana either, they'll keep neutral 'til they see what kind of magic Z/S can work..and to see whether their coaching star stays ascendant as Sochi approaches.

    At some point, Z/S will reach the limit of how many teams they can handle at one time..the RSF may partly be making sure they have a toe in the door, so they could sub in another partner for Jana if she and Fedor come up short , or maybe a whole other team, if their younger teams don't progress as hoped under their current coaching arrangements....or if their coaching scene doesn't develop as quickly as they'd like....( I wish we had a dizzy smiley )

    I don't think at all that the RSF would want to bet on just one coaching team , but if one coaching team should enjoy a really long term dominance,( particularly in Ice dance where Russia has it's own history of long term dominance ) they wouldn't want to be shut out.
    Last edited by colleen o'neill; 05-02-2010 at 10:45 PM.

  13. #43
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    It looks like RSF is not that confident in I/K's chance to be ready to fight for Gold in Sochi. In this situation, they are trying to have an alternate option of more well-known and established athlete to be under the radar just in case. That's what they have always done- they always have two top teams supporting each other. I still think I/K are the favorites with RSF, but they are still an unknown entity and till they prove themselves. So I think Kokhlova is smart girl by doing this, even though she does not have many options anyways.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    And the difference between the Americans and the Russians, is that in the case of the Russian coaches, a lot of their training was given to them for free by the government. And all governments are financed directly or indirectly by their people. So indirectly the Russians can feel like they paid for those coaches knowledge. Which can lead to how new feelings.
    Nah. Sure, the government paid for the training - but it also took the lion's share of any prizes.
    It's this whole "patriotism" argument. It reminds me of a story my dad like to recount. He was on some business trip (this was in Russia in the 80's), staying at a hotel. He wrang for a cup of tea, but his floor's attendant wasn't there, so he went onto another floor to ask that floor's attendant for the tea. Later on, his floor's attendant reproached him - "How can you be so unpatriotic to your floor!" Seriously. No irony.

  15. #45
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    From the Elena Vaytsehovskaya's blog:

    "And tomorrow in the "RC" - figure skating. Pretty great stuff, the essence of which lies in the fact that pairs of Jan Khokhlova and Sergei Novitski no longer exists. The decision, confirmed by all parties concerned, so it is - the official information."

    http://blog.sport-express.ru/users/v...post125743649/

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